Ukraine

[mahlerfan]

My feeling is that you're right. Public figures are subject to far more scrutiny now than in the post-1945 period. I guess it will depend to some extent on how contrite these people eventually are.

I'm not sure there's more scrutiny as such, if I understand the word correctly. But certainly a searchlight is shon on public figures more these days, though not always to good effect, in my opinion.

[LHC]

He'll be lucky! Gergiev is toxic right now and I can't see that changing for a very long time, if ever. It's not as if Gergiev is some sort of naive fool who has been duped by Putin. They go back a long way and it's a personal friendship. Indeed, I can't think of a Third Reich equivalent here, no matter how much some musicians compromised themselves or went along with the system for their own reasons. Winifred Wagner might be considered as a rough approximation but she wasn't a conductor on the world stage.

A better comparison might be Heinz Tiejten, who was director of the Prussian State Theatre, and also artistic director at the Bayreuth Festival until 1944. He was allegedly a committed Nazi, and also Winifred Wagner’s lover. At the Prussian State Theatre he was apparently pretty ruthless in getting rid of suspected communists, and of course knew Hitler through his association with the Wagners and Bayreuth.

He was cleared by a denazification tribunal after the war, but I have seen suggestions that his family have refused access to his archives to hide the extent of his connections with the Nazis.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I agree there may be differences, and I must confess that I don't actually know anything about Gergiev and Putin's friendship, which is worrying, given that I'm adamant he should be banned!

Speer? He seems to have been more complicit than Gergiev. Again, I'm no expert.

Speer was intimately involved in the Third Reich. He was at one stage Minister of Armaments and implicated in the use of slave labour. He was prosecuted at the Nuremberg trials where he was found guilty of war crimes .There is absolutely no comparison between him and Gergiev.

[Petrushka]

A better comparison might be Heinz Tiejten, who was director of the Prussian State Theatre, and also artistic director at the Bayreuth Festival until 1944. He was allegedly a committed Nazi, and also Winifred Wagner’s lover. At the Prussian State Theatre he was apparently pretty ruthless in getting rid of suspected communists, and of course knew Hitler through his association with the Wagners and Bayreuth.

He was cleared by a denazification tribunal after the war, but I have seen suggestions that his family have refused access to his archives to hide the extent of his connections with the Nazis.

Thanks. Tietjen was someone I had in mind then found I didn't actually know sufficient about him to make a proper connection.

[oddoneout]

It just gets worse and worse.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/18/syrians-join-russian-ranks-in-ukraine-as-putin-calls-in-assads-debt

[eighthobstruction]

....hmmmmm....i guess living in poverty amidst a wasteland can twist ones morality....

[Historian]

As Putin's offensives have slowed, in the face of unexpected Ukrainian resistance, he has reverted to type (cf. Grozny, Aleppo). Mariupol and other cities are besieged and under heavy bombardment, regardless of civilian casualties. Worst-case scenario might be a stalemate with both sides entrenched and neither able to force a win.

[french frank]

As Putin's offensives have slowed, in the face of unexpected Ukrainian resistance, he has reverted to type (cf. Grozny, Aleppo). Mariupol and other cities are besieged and under heavy bombardment, regardless of civilian casualties. Worst-case scenario might be a stalemate with both sides entrenched and neither able to force a win.

An awful prospect. But one thing I'm not clear about: how long can the Russian economy survive in the medium to long-term in the face of complete ostracisation by the West? Can India and China fill the gap?

[Historian]

An awful prospect. But one thing I'm not clear about: how long can the Russian economy survive in the medium to long-term in the face of complete ostracisation by the West? Can India and China fill the gap?

I believe that Putin has spent a lot of time and effort in recent years reducing Russian dependence on trade with the West, as well as building up strategic stockpiles of essential raw materials etc. A generalisation, but the Russian population is more accustomed to lower living standards and shortages , which gives him further leeway. There will be shortages and major problems, which will leave a poor economic legacy for many years, but that's not the same as stopping his war effort. This is of course, only my view. Others may be better informed (or just disagree with me).

[Jazzrook]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10631221/PETER-HITCHENS-denounce-Putins-bombs-pay-homage-rulers-filthier-war.html

JR

[Petrushka]

I believe that Putin has spent a lot of time and effort in recent years reducing Russian dependence on trade with the West, as well as building up strategic stockpiles of essential raw materials etc. A generalisation, but the Russian population is more accustomed to lower living standards and shortages , which gives him further leeway. There will be shortages and major problems, which will leave a poor economic legacy for many years, but that's not the same as stopping his war effort. This is of course, only my view. Others may be better informed (or just disagree with me).

The latest post from Lawrence Freedman (dated March 15) with regard to the economy is well worth reading. https://samf.substack.com/p/the-bank...olonialist?s=r

[french frank]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...thier-war.html

JR

I don't know why Hitchens gives the impression that he's the only one who's ever propounded these opinions, the only clear-sighted dissident. We do live in a complicated, contradictory world and some politicians/people are unspeakable, whether adding to or attempting to counter the evils in society. We all make a pretty miserable job of it but Hitchens seems, unfailingly, to hit the wrong note in all his righteous fulminations.

[richardfinegold]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...thier-war.html

JR

I thought that guy’s brother was a crabass, but it must be a familial trait

[Historian]

The latest post from Lawrence Freedman (dated March 15) with regard to the economy is well worth reading. https://samf.substack.com/p/the-bank...olonialist?s=r

He's always worth reading (though I should declare an interest as he used to teach me). Looks at the bigger picture, including the future effects both Russia and Ukraine.

[richardfinegold]

I believe that Putin has spent a lot of time and effort in recent years reducing Russian dependence on trade with the West, as well as building up strategic stockpiles of essential raw materials etc. A generalisation, but the Russian population is more accustomed to lower living standards and shortages , which gives him further leeway. There will be shortages and major problems, which will leave a poor economic legacy for many years, but that's not the same as stopping his war effort. This is of course, only my view. Others may be better informed (or just disagree with me).

It’s been clear for some time now that Putin will be unable to conquer Ukraine but he can cause a lot of damage and will probably continue to do so. Apparently he doesn’t care what this does to his own country economically. The only thing that really deters this kind of attitude is if the same kind of suffering is brought to his own doorstep. The Germans and the Japanese both had a long lasting change of heart about militarism after 1945. One would have thought the the USSR and it’s successor Russian state would have gotten the memo as well, given the devastation that WWII wreaked upon them. However as a victor of that conflict, they were able to control the post war narrative, and the victim status gave them room to claim, with some legitimacy, that they needed a buffer from the rapacious Fascism of the West. The current Russian mindset claims to still require such a buffer, equating the Ukrainians as a spearhead for a Western assault. There is no answer to such a ridiculous Paranoid Worldview that spares violence. Clearly no Western assault is forthcoming no matter what Russia does