Ukraine

[Serial_Apologist]

“…transition from Leninism to a soft gradual reformism…”. Is that how you describe Stalin? The collective farms, the resulting famine in the Ukraine that killed 2 million; the purges and the explosion in growth of the Gulag, and on it goes. It still is remarkable how many people still cherish the ideal of the Soviet Union and ignore the decades long ugly reality.

If you re-read you will see that my reference to soft gradual reformism was in respect of capitalist countries: as a Triotskyist, a lapsed one, true, but one who still holds to Trotsky's take on Stalinism, I never had ideals about the Soviet Union. If the USSR was the only available model of socialism, I would have remained pro-capitalism.

[Joseph K]

Indeed so. Although perhaps it should be noted that these values are being seriously eroded elsewhere as well, including rather obviously in the UK. Which of course is not to put Downing Street and the White House on the same level as the Kremlin; but one thing that could be learned from the current situation (and the reason why so many of us stress the expansionist and hypocritical approach of NATO) is that "we" would be in a much better position not just within our own society but in a more global context if "we" actually put our stated commitment to "democracy, freedom of the press and the rule of law" more clearly into practice. If there were such a moral example in the world it would be much more difficult for people like Putin to rise to power. The problem is that capitalism (both Western market capitalism and the state capitalism of countries like Russia and China) embodies fundamentally anti-democratic features.

Well put.

[Serial_Apologist]

I’ve just reread the chapter on Russia in Tim Marshall’s ‘Prisoners of Geography: Ten maps that tell you everything you need to know about global politics’. In 28 lucid pages, it gives a précis of Russia’s geopolitical outlook on the world from the foundation of Kievan Rus in the 9th Century to 2016 when the book was published. Seeing Russia’s resources, scale and security through the perspective of its geography shows the constants in its actions through the centuries. He concludes: ‘It does not matter if the ideology of those in control is tsarist, Communist or crony capitalism - the ports still freeze, and the North European Plain is still flat. Strip out the lines of nation states, and the map Ivan the Terrible confronted is the same one Vladimir Putin is faced with to this day.’ Worth a read.

I have to admit, there is a lot to attributing Russia's long-term geopolitical outlook to singular geographical and climatological factors. These would of course have lessened with the advances which have been made in access, ice-breakers included, and with climate warming we now see the freeing of key northern ports from ice for lengthening periods of the year, some remaining open right through, I understand. Other countries similarly restricted have not resorted to aggressive national ideologies.

[RichardB]

Patrick Cockburn on threat of nuclear conflict

Oh no! another Counterpunch contributor!!!

[Gabriel Jackson]

The carving up of Poland and swallowing of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania was initiated by the Nazi army, of course, then driven back by the Red Army and handed to the USSR in the Yalta agreement.

This is not correct. The carving up of Poland occurred as a result of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact of 1939. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were occupied by the Soviet Union in 1940. They were under Nazi occupation from 1941-1944 when the Soviet Union re-occupied.

[Serial_Apologist]

This is not correct. The carving up of Poland occurred as a result of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact of 1939. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were occupied by the Soviet Union in 1940. They were under Nazi occupation from 1941-1944 when the Soviet Union re-occupied.

Thanks for correcting me, GJ.

[gurnemanz]

If you re-read you will see that my reference to soft gradual reformism was in respect of capitalist countries: as a Triotskyist, a lapsed one, true, but one who still holds to Trotsky's take on Stalinism, I never had ideals about the Soviet Union. If the USSR was the only available model of socialism, I would have remained pro-capitalism.

I once had a vague idea that socialism might be the answer but was speedily disillusioned. Capitalism tempered by state intervention a la Ralf Dahrendorf (my hero) seemed a decent compromise to me. My wife grew up in East Germany (Die Deutsche Demokratische [!] Republik) and I got to know the country and the people very well before they eventually allowed us to marry and her to leave and become British. New daily jokes, spread by word of mouth with the frisson of some personal risk, made life there more jolly. Eg

Was ist schön? Was ist Scheiße?
Schön, dass es den Sozialismus gibt. Scheiße, dass es den hier gibt.

(What's nice? What's shit?
Nice that socialism exists. Shit that it exists here.)

What do you call the Gewandhaus after a tour to the West? A string quartet.

Etc etc

I met a lot of of East German musicians in the early 70s, including some quite eminent ones. I remember being very struck by a conversation with someone fairly high up in the Gewandhaus admin, still around and one of Germany's foremost new music gurus. He pointed out that, having been born 1933, he had never lived in a democracy.

It surprises me that given the history of mendacity from above and sledgehammer propaganda, so many Russians currently appear to actually believe the absurd official line being trotted out.

[Serial_Apologist]

I once had a vague idea that socialism might be the answer but was speedily disillusioned. Capitalism tempered by state intervention a la Ralf Dahrendorf (my hero) seemed a decent compromise to me. My wife grew up in East Germany (Die Deutsche Demokratische [!] Republik) and I got to know the country and the people very well before they eventually allowed us to marry and her to leave and become British. New daily jokes, spread by word of mouth with the frisson of some personal risk, made life there more jolly. Eg

Was ist schön? Was ist Scheiße?
Schön, dass es den Sozialismus gibt. Scheiße, dass es den hier gibt.

(What's nice? What's shit?
Nice that socialism exists. Shit that it exists here.)

What do you call the Gewandhaus after a tour to the West? A string quartet.

Etc etc

I met a lot of of East German musicians in the early 70s, including some quite eminent ones. I remember being very struck by a conversation with someone fairly high up in the Gewandhaus admin, still around and one of Germany's foremost new music gurus. He pointed out that, having been born 1933, he had never lived in a democracy.

It surprises me that given the history of mendacity from above and sledgehammer propaganda, so many Russians currently appear to actually believe the absurd official line being trotted out.

Well Gurney I'm going to hand you this one in a top hat by saying: it depends what you mean by socialism!

[Joseph K]

I once had a vague idea that socialism might be the answer but was speedily disillusioned. Capitalism tempered by state intervention a la Ralf Dahrendorf (my hero) seemed a decent compromise to me.

Capitalism has always existed with state intervention - when there's a crisis the state always comes along to rescue it, but capitalism always relies on state intervention in the case of infrastructure, serving the basic needs of society etc. As Richard B points out in #460 what's been very erroneously called 'communism' is actually just another form of capitalism - state capitalism. The decent compromise you mention amounts to kicking the can down the road. We very desperately need a Green New Deal to deal with the climate crisis and to aim for a society where there is zero growth - as Chomsky said in the interview in the link given a while back on this thread, humanity ought to be getting together to ensure these things happen, rather being preoccupied with the threat of nuclear war (which is the other big threat to humanity's existence singled out by Chomsky in his various books) which has reared its terrible head again.

[eighthobstruction]

....little nugget of info I just heard on Deutsch Welle.... April 1st is the day that Russian constription begins and ends for 150k soldiers and 150k new recruits....could just be another small thing that might affect the situation....

[Serial_Apologist]

....little nugget of info I just heard on Deutsch Welle.... April 1st is the day that Russian constription begins and ends for 150k soldiers and 150k new recruits....could just be another small thing that might affect the situation....

I would imagine they were told they were going on extra-mural studies.

[eighthobstruction]

I would imagine they were told they were going on extra-mural studies.

....yeah ....told Z stands for Zelensky no doubt....

[Bryn]

[french frank]

I would imagine they were told they were going on extra-mural studies.

I don't believe anything I'm told by anyone, of course. Not in time of war. But one story was that the young conscripts were invited to sign on as 'volunteers' as new conscripts aren't supposed to be sent into war zones. So the 150k just ending their conscription may now be starting their service as 'contractors' rather than going home.

https://www.polygraph.info/a/fact-check-who-s-fighting-for-russia-soldiers-families-fact-check-the-kremlin/31728809.html

[Serial_Apologist]

I don't believe anything I'm told by anyone, of course.

It seems to me that support for Ukraine's right to self-determination to sort out its own internal problems should go without saying as a general principle. I've just seen unmediated footage on a radical left site that's been urging me to join them: it's a spokesman for something calling itself the LaRouch movement, of which I had not previously heard, and it just goes to show how careful one needs to be when considering alternative viewpoints to a majority of the mainstream media, much though the latter should also not be taken uncritically on their words. As you say, ff.