Ukraine

[Frances_iom]

...What history is there of a peaceful Russia being interfered with by the West?...

Napoleon + Hitler for 2 but whether Russia was peaceful is questionable - certainly in latter case it was complicit is taking over Poland and was still fighting Finland to gain territory (hence many Finns supporting Hitler on the enemy's enemy = friend).

[french frank]

Napoleon + Hitler for 2 but whether Russia was peaceful is questionable - certainly in latter case it was complicit is taking over Poland and was still fighting Finland to gain territory (hence many Finns supporting Hitler on the enemy's enemy = friend).

Yes, but neither Napoleon nor Hitler represented 'the West' in the way NATO does - regardless of the fact that even Hitler hasn't been around for almost 80 years. Trump, with a favourable wind, might be the same kind of megalomaniac who can't make up his mind whether Putin is his old trustworthy friend or one to be bombed to extinction.

[Frances_iom]

Yes, but neither Napoleon nor Hitler represented 'the West' in the way NATO does.

At the time Napoleon was in charge of most of Europe!

[eighthobstruction]

....one remembers that at the beginning of his tenure Putin expended much energy and logistics to create the Putin Youth programmes (affecting hundreds of thousands++)....indoctrinating and propagation and such....these folk in there 30/40s now....

[french frank]

At the time Napoleon was in charge of most of Europe!

My mistake to take it for granted that a concept like the contemporary situation in the "democratic West" would be understood, rather than a dictator who lived 200 years ago! I wasn't thinking of Ivan the Terrible or Genghis Khan either. I was seriously trying to get at the real grounds for Putin thinking that Russian security would be jeopardised by, say, Ukraine being in NATO.

[Dave2002]

Just on that single point, I was speaking of the situation before the crisis began when polls were taken.

"A survey in September last year showed that 68% of Odesa residents agreed with Vladimir Putin’s statement that Russians and Ukrainians are “one people”, while only 20% of people thought the future of Ukraine was in integration with Europe. Thirty-eight per cent wanted closer ties with Russia, and 27% neutrality.

However, the events of the past two weeks may have dramatically altered such figures."

Until recently I would have agreed that some - perhaps many - Ukrainians and Russians would have thought of themselves as "one people" - but recent events are demonstrating that they don't feel that way now.

I don't know what "the survey" was - but assuming that it was fair, that still shows a kind of balance of 47% to 38% who did not express a preference for Russia. At the time Odesa would have benefited considerably from European tourism.
Feelings in much of the rest of the country were definitely against Russia and separatists when we visited - but that was when fighting was less intense than it is now.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The import ban on Russian oil is a big historical moment . What was a rumour two days ago is now reality .Its difficult to underestimate the economic impact of this. Quite incredible how quickly events are moving…

[Frances_iom]

...I was seriously trying to get at the real grounds for Putin thinking that Russian security would be jeopardised by, say, Ukraine being in NATO.

What I think is jeopardised is Putin's view that he and especially his exKGB mates ought to be masters of Russia and the lands that have in the past formed part of the Russian empire. It is I suspect the KGB background is key - they had no compunctions in use of force, deception etc and were mostly the winners during Stalinist days as well as later.

[oddoneout]

What is it with these people?

A government spokesperson said: “We are working to process applications as quickly as possible and submitting an application in English reduces delays, which means we can get people here more efficiently. However, if someone is unable to provide translated documents they should still submit their application with untranslated documents.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...isa-processing

Well yes of course everyone fleeing war with the clothes they stand up in will have translated documents to hand...
If it's this difficult for someone with British citizenship and accommodation to go to, what hope for those with no such "advantages"?

[RichardB]

If it's this difficult for someone with British citizenship and accommodation to go to, what hope for those with no such "advantages"?

If they start letting in every Tom, Dick and Vladimir people are going to start asking what the point of Brexit was.

[Maclintick]

If they start letting in every Tom, Dick and Vladimir people are going to start asking what the point of Brexit was.

I signed the parliamentary petition to waive visa requirements for Ukrainian refugees & wrote to my MP expressing the hope that he'd support moves to enable this in the Commons. His reply depressingly echoed the Brexity xenophobia to which you're alluding -- "Let 'em in ? You must be jokin', mate ! There's all sort of Putin's Black Ops saboteurs who'll flood the UK posing as refugees who'll be up to no end of mischief" etc. Pure scaremongering.

[Bryn]

https://www.euronews.com/2022/03/03/ukraine-war-russian-embassy-road-in-vilnius-to-be-named-ukrainian-heroes-street

[Dave2002]

I signed the parliamentary petition to waive visa requirements for Ukrainian refugees & wrote to my MP expressing the hope that he'd support moves to enable this in the Commons. His reply depressingly echoed the Brexity xenophobia to which you're alluding -- "Let 'em in ? You must be jokin', mate ! There's all sort of Putin's Black Ops saboteurs who'll flood the UK posing as refugees who'll be up to no end of mischief" etc. Pure scaremongering.

Unfortunately there's probably some truth in that - though that doesn't mean that quick checks couldn't be done - something which some of us here suspect that us "xenophobic brits" don't really want to do.
I really don't see why it should be impossible to let in most of the refugees who fairly obviously post no threat to the UK. I'm sad that the wording of the petition didn't allow for any comments. Waiving visa requirements seems very sensible to me as long as basic security checks can be met, and the UK should be taking in many of these people.

Government attempts to stall this by bureaucratic means seem completely out of order to me.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I signed the parliamentary petition to waive visa requirements for Ukrainian refugees & wrote to my MP expressing the hope that he'd support moves to enable this in the Commons. His reply depressingly echoed the Brexity xenophobia to which you're alluding -- "Let 'em in ? You must be jokin', mate ! There's all sort of Putin's Black Ops saboteurs who'll flood the UK posing as refugees who'll be up to no end of mischief" etc. Pure scaremongering.

And how did your MP differentiate these supposed fifth columnists from those Russian Oligarchs known to be linked to former KGB man Putin and also linked to swathes of the British establishment? Using young mothers with infants at the breast as saboteurs -that’s just so cunning. It’s all you can do not to roar with laughter ….

[Bryn]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-embassy-staff-diplomats-uk-b2031024.html?utm_content=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1646765574