Ukraine

[oddoneout]

With apologies for the light hearted digression does any one really like Chicken Kiev? - doesn’t it have tendency to spurt garlic butter on the shirt?
Are there any other Ukrainian meals or classic dishes we could turn to ? I am in complete ignorance about this as indeed I am about Ukrainian culture in general .
The only novel I’ve read that set there is Bulgakov’s White Guard . A magnificent work….

You might find this of interest https://www.theguardian.com/food/202...ules-interview

[Ein Heldenleben]

The bombing of Yugoslavia is one example.

That’ll be the one that the notorious warmonger Michael Foot lobbied for (quite rightly ) and that ended the conflict pronto and saved thousands of lives ?

[french frank]

The bombing of Yugoslavia is one example.

Well, I have to fall back on Wikipedia, which may have been 'invaded' by partisan forces. It suggests that a UN mandate was sought by NATO as a response to Yugoslav ethnic cleansing of Albanians, but that mandate was blocked by Russia and China. The Yugoslav regime refused to sign the Rambouillet Agreement proposing a peaceful settlement because Belgrade insisted that Kosovo remain part of Serbia and the Albanians wouldn't accept that. Yes, NATO intervened with the moral backing of much of the Western community but without the UN's agreement (see above).

A tough situation. I find it hard to single out NATO as a warmongering aggressor.

[oddoneout]

Unintended consequences...
Post Brexit regulations are causing major headaches for those handling donations in kind https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60619676 Paragraph headed "Red tape was horrendous" has details.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...-cash-supplies

To ensure the donated items do not attract EU customs duties, the club is donating them all to the Polish arm of the charity Caritas, which is then going to distribute the items to the refugees arriving on the border.

This article has details of several ways to donate other than in kind.

Probably just as well that DEC is now asking for cash donations so that supplies can be provided that are what is actually needed.

[RichardB]

That’ll be the one that the notorious warmonger Michael Foot lobbied for (quite rightly ) and that ended the conflict pronto and saved thousands of lives ?

Not quite. The bombing of Belgrade lasted for 78 days and killed around 1 500 people. More importantly it didn't end the conflict, far from it - by forcing Milošević to withdraw his troops from Kosovo it created a space for the Kosovo Liberation Army to commit atrocities of its own against Serbs left there. From a USA Today article in 2002: “A desire to spread freedom does not automatically confer a license to kill…. Operation Allied Force in 1999 bombed Belgrade, Yugoslavia, into submission purportedly to liberate Kosovo. Though Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic raised the white flag, ethnic cleansing continued — with the minority Serbs being slaughtered and their churches burned to the ground in the same way the Serbs previously oppressed the ethnic Albanians.” And from a 2008 article by historian Gary Leupp: "After the glorious victory of NATO over Yugoslavia, it was discovered that as few as 2,108 people were actually killed in the province during 1998-9 before the bombardment began. Quite likely more Serbs have been killed by Albanians than vice versa since 1998."

[Ein Heldenleben]

Not quite. The bombing of Belgrade lasted for 78 days and killed around 1 500 people. More importantly it didn't end the conflict, far from it - by forcing Milošević to withdraw his troops from Kosovo it created a space for the Kosovo Liberation Army to commit atrocities of its own against Serbs left there. From a USA Today article in 2002: “A desire to spread freedom does not automatically confer a license to kill…. Operation Allied Force in 1999 bombed Belgrade, Yugoslavia, into submission purportedly to liberate Kosovo. Though Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic raised the white flag, ethnic cleansing continued — with the minority Serbs being slaughtered and their churches burned to the ground in the same way the Serbs previously oppressed the ethnic Albanians.” And from a 2008 article by historian Gary Leupp: "After the glorious victory of NATO over Yugoslavia, it was discovered that as few as 2,108 people were actually killed in the province during 1998-9 before the bombardment began. Quite likely more Serbs have been killed by Albanians than vice versa since 1998."

Counterpunch ? Gary Leupp ? Please don’t make me laugh . For further merriment try Peter Hitchens in Mail Online this evening.

[RichardB]

Counterpunch ? Gary Leupp ? Please don’t make me laugh . For further merriment try Peter Hitchens in Mail Online this evening.

I'm not going to look at Mail Online under any circumstances. I take it that you don't contest any of the facts in my post then?

[Ein Heldenleben]

I'm not going to look at Mail Online under any circumstances. I take it that you don't contest any of the facts in my post then?

I can’t take Counterpunch seriously to be honest so contesting the facts doesn’t come into it. The Hitchens article would probably fit into their editorial remit.

[RichardB]

I can’t take Counterpunch seriously to be honest

I think that is a mistake. It publishes a broad variety of authors sometimes with quite contrasting views so I don't think a blanket dismissal of it is appropriate. But OK, how about Simon Jenkins: "[T]hree months of bombing of Belgrade in 1999 was supposed to force the Serb leader, Slobodan Milošević, to withdraw his forces from Kosovo. It spread from military to civilian targets, including power stations, Danube bridges and civic and historic buildings. Intelligence leaks to the New York Times admitted this “increased Serb recruits’ willingness to fight”, while merely hastening the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo."

[Joseph K]

Not quite. The bombing of Belgrade lasted for 78 days and killed around 1 500 people. More importantly it didn't end the conflict, far from it - by forcing Milošević to withdraw his troops from Kosovo it created a space for the Kosovo Liberation Army to commit atrocities of its own against Serbs left there. From a USA Today article in 2002: “A desire to spread freedom does not automatically confer a license to kill…. Operation Allied Force in 1999 bombed Belgrade, Yugoslavia, into submission purportedly to liberate Kosovo. Though Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic raised the white flag, ethnic cleansing continued — with the minority Serbs being slaughtered and their churches burned to the ground in the same way the Serbs previously oppressed the ethnic Albanians.” And from a 2008 article by historian Gary Leupp: "After the glorious victory of NATO over Yugoslavia, it was discovered that as few as 2,108 people were actually killed in the province during 1998-9 before the bombardment began. Quite likely more Serbs have been killed by Albanians than vice versa since 1998."

I was going to mention Chomsky - but it seems one's sources get ridiculed in any case.

[Jazzrook]

Slavoj Zizek on Ukraine:

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/europe-unequal-treatment-of-refugees-exposed-by-ukraine-by-slavoj-zizek-2022-03

JR

[Bryn]

Slavoj Zizek on Ukraine:

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/europe-unequal-treatment-of-refugees-exposed-by-ukraine-by-slavoj-zizek-2022-03

JR

Thanks for posting this link to a powerful statement.

[RichardB]

I was going to mention Chomsky - but it seems one's sources get ridiculed in any case.

It's a matter of facts rather than of individual perceptions of course, and it's sometimes amazing what gets through into the supposedly liberal mainstream media. I was looking earlier at a new article from the odious Nick Cohen, whose headline begins "Far right and far left alike admired Putin", and then goes on to give precisely zero evidence of any admiration for Putin on the "far left", apart from these few words: "In the UK, the Labour leadership ordered MPs from the rump of the Corbyn left to disassociate themselves from a letter blaming Putin’s war on Nato or lose the whip." (The STW letter of course did not "blame Putin's war on NATO" and it's quite shameful that Cohen is allowed blithely to trot out this lie.) This is the kind of reason why it's necessary to cast one's net wider than such outlets in order to get a more balanced view.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think that is a mistake. It publishes a broad variety of authors sometimes with quite contrasting views so I don't think a blanket dismissal of it is appropriate. But OK, how about Simon Jenkins: "[T]hree months of bombing of Belgrade in 1999 was supposed to force the Serb leader, Slobodan Milošević, to withdraw his forces from Kosovo. It spread from military to civilian targets, including power stations, Danube bridges and civic and historic buildings. Intelligence leaks to the New York Times admitted this “increased Serb recruits’ willingness to fight”, while merely hastening the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo."

Didn’t Counterpunch have problem a few years back with a series of fake articles ? That’s the problem with free websites that don’t have the resources to fact-check even on who’s submitting the article . As always with people like Gary there’s the germ of an argument but they just extend the argument too far - as in his latest article in Counterpunch. The blame that can be laid at the West’s door lies only partially in prodding the “Bear” , I.e. Nato expansion , but largely , in my view , in all the mixed messages we’ve been sending out esp Trump, defence cuts and general European disunity, not to mention the fiasco In Afghanistan. Now it’s taken a war to bring about unity and the prospect of NATO getting bigger and stronger.
As I’ve done you the courtesy of reading CP perhaps you could read (or re-read) Timothy Garton Ash in On Kosovo . I think he gets it right - the West shouldn’t have exulted (esp Clinton and Blair ) but it led to Milošević’s exit and it was the right thing to do .T G-A actually went there to ask the Serbs what they thought - unlike most commentators.
Despite your revulsion at the Mail you should read Hitchens today. It s the only piece I’ve read in any traditional newspaper which questions the West’s response to the Ukraine and though you might well feel he goes too far it seems to align with quite a few of your opinions if I have correctly interpreted them . I think it’s quite important to publish pieces which run against the overwhelming trend and though I don’t like a lot of Mail journalism good on them for doing it. Refusing to read the Mail is as wrong as refusing to read Counterpunch isn’t it ?

On a general point I’ve once or twice been asked questions on this strand which have been answered in earlier posts - to avoid wasting my time and more importantly boring people I haven’t responded.

[Joseph K]

It's a matter of facts rather than of individual perceptions of course, and it's sometimes amazing what gets through into the supposedly liberal mainstream media. I was looking earlier at a new article from the odious Nick Cohen, whose headline begins "Far right and far left alike admired Putin", and then goes on to give precisely zero evidence of any admiration for Putin on the "far left", apart from these few words: "In the UK, the Labour leadership ordered MPs from the rump of the Corbyn left to disassociate themselves from a letter blaming Putin’s war on Nato or lose the whip." (The STW letter of course did not "blame Putin's war on NATO" and it's quite shameful that Cohen is allowed blithely to trot out this lie.) This is the kind of reason why it's necessary to cast one's net wider than such outlets in order to get a more balanced view.

Odious indeed.