Ukraine

[Bryn]

I wouldn’t call some of what happened in Iraq, Syria, Libya mistakes. The WMD nonsense was quite deliberate, and very obvious even at the time. Blair was not acting in the interests of his people IMO.

Quite! It was depressing, at the time, how many on the 'left', bought into the war on the basis that Sadam Hussein was a nasty piece of work. Certainly, he was, but the war served very much to stir up a hornets' nest which the people of the region continue to live with. The internal contradictions of a given society are rarely resolved by external intervention, whether they have oil or not.

[Ein Heldenleben]

"Shostakovich"? Unmistakeably Stravinsky, surely?

Yes just not concentrating . It was the violin concerto . I didn’t stick with the concert . On FM the CBSO strings sounded somewhat out of sorts …

[Serial_Apologist]

Quite! It was depressing, at the time, how many on the 'left', bought into the war on the basis that Sadam Hussein was a nasty piece of work. Certainly, he was, but the war served very much to stir up a hornets' nest which the people of the region continue to live with. The internal contradictions of a given society are rarely resolved by external intervention, whether they have oil or not.

[Joseph K]

Whatever mistakes were made in Iraq, Libya, Syria - they weren't aimed at Russia, more at the type of leadership of those countries which finds no place in the West but which Putin seemingly admires.

The mistakes made 'in' those countries was going there in the first place! 'Finds no place in the West', except we were/are friends of such countries e.g. Saudi Arabia, Pinochet's Chile...

[RichardB]

For me the most important part of Chomsky's interview is this:

The options that remain after the invasion are grim. The least bad is support for the diplomatic options that still exist, in the hope of reaching an outcome not too far from what was very likely achievable a few days ago: Austrian-style neutralization of Ukraine, some version of Minsk II federalism within. Much harder to reach now. And — necessarily — with an escape hatch for Putin, or outcomes will be still more dire for Ukraine and everyone else, perhaps almost unimaginably so.

Very remote from justice. But when has justice prevailed in international affairs? Is it necessary to review the appalling record once again?

Like it or not, the choices are now reduced to an ugly outcome that rewards rather than punishes Putin for the act of aggression — or the strong possibility of terminal war.

I hope those in positions of power are considering such questions too. But (like the US president in Don't Look Up) they might well be more concerned with their own reputations as "strong leaders" than with the survival of human civilisation.

[french frank]

I wouldn’t call some of what happened in Iraq, Syria, Libya mistakes. The WMD nonsense was quite deliberate, and very obvious even at the time. Blair was not acting in the interests of his people IMO.

That's a quibble over one word which I used in a much longer post. I'll rephrase it: war crimes. Now move on to the rest.

The mistakes made 'in' those countries was going there in the first place! 'Finds no place in the West', except we were/are friends of such countries e.g. Saudi Arabia, Pinochet's Chile...

True. But I wouldn't include either Saudi Arabia or Chile as the democratic West. For Pinochet read Allende there's a point. But we're still talking about history. Neither of these examples are justifications for what Putin is doing.

My main argument against Stop the War is that the chips are down. This isn't a time to say If we hadn't been so guilty, none of this would be happening. Irrelevant in my view - at this moment. The Berlin Wall fell because the peoples dominated by the USSR took to the streets and said, No more. And that's what sticks in Putin's craw.

The only relevant point is how we get out of this mess, not who was guilty of what in Nineteen-hundred-and-freezin'-cold.

[french frank]

For me the most important part of Chomsky's interview is this:

Like it or not, the choices are now reduced to an ugly outcome that rewards rather than punishes Putin for the act of aggression — or the strong possibility of terminal war.

Probably. And I know which I'd support.

[Dave2002]

Last night we went to a concert with Brahms Piano Concerto with the BBC Scottish Orchestra conducted by Thomas Dausgaard. The first piece was by Valentyn Sylvestrov added in as recognition of what is now the war in Ukraine. The Russian pianist Alexander Melnikov was applauded at the end - and he was pretty good. It's very difficult to separate out issues under the current circumstances.
We ordered tickets months ago, and I doubt that the pianist took any part in this.

I don't know how the current situation compares with the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia, which to my surprise happened about the time when I went to hear a Russian orchestra with Mstislav Rostropovich at the RAH. Was that as bloody as this current onslaught, or did we just never find out?

[Dave2002]

Probably. And I know which I'd support.

A slightly enigmatic response.

[Serial_Apologist]

Last night we went to a concert with Brahms Piano Concerto with the BBC Scottish Orchestra conducted by Thomas Dausgaard. The first piece was by Valentyn Sylvestrov added in as recognition of what is now the war in Ukraine. The Russian pianist Alexander Melnikov was applauded at the end - and he was pretty good. It's very difficult to separate out issues under the current circumstances.
We ordered tickets months ago, and I doubt that the pianist took any part in this.

I don't know how the current situation compares with the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia, which to my surprise happened about the time when I went to hear a Russian orchestra with Mstislav Rostropovich at the RAH. Was that as bloody as this current onslaught, or did we just never find out?

I think it was less bloody than now, but also than the crushing of the Hungarian uprising of 12 years preceding. Remember, the Dubcek revolution was less a revolution per se than an attempt at inner political reform allowing popular involvement in elections and cultural independence from the Soviet Union. At grass roots level no one was taking to arms, so the invasion by the Red Army was basically a walkover - Dubcek stated that he wanted what he saw as limited change within the political terms on which the USSR was operating. The objective dynamic unleashed would have had qualitative implications, however, as it threatened the monopoly of bureaucratic power, taking nominal public ownership out of the hands of the privileged top layer and handing it to control from the base, as had been outlined in Lenin's State and Revolution. Power was restored to top-down, and Dubcek was imprisoned, and later became a forestry worker, from what I remember.

[Dave2002]

The objective dynamic unleashed would have had qualitative implications, however, as it threatened the monopoly of bureaucratic power, taking nominal public ownership out of the hands of the privileged top layer and handing it to control from the base, as had been outlined in Lenin's State and Revolution. Power was restored to top-down, and Dubcek was imprisoned, and later became a forestry worker, from what I remember.

So much for Communist ideals then!

[RichardB]

Neither of these examples are justifications for what Putin is doing.

But neither Chomsky nor STW are offering any "justifications" for what Putin is doing, I think you have a straw person on your hands there.

My main argument against Stop the War is that the chips are down.

Indeed - but I don't see how it can possibly be "irrelevant" to understand how we got here. As Chomsky says, the choice might well be giving Putin enough of what he wants in order to avoid massively more bloodshed or even annihilation. To come to that conclusion involves analysing the events and processes which led to the invasion. Make no mistake: the powers that be might want us not to acknowledge the role of NATO for reasons of suppressing any questioning of their authority, but they know the truth of it just as well as anyone else, as we see from Chomsky's quoting not loony lefty peaceniks but US government figures and diplomats. Eventually the accommodation they ought to have the sense to reach will be pretty much the same as what they could have achieved at any time in the last few years, except that thousands of innocent people will have died in the meantime.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Last night we went to a concert with Brahms Piano Concerto with the BBC Scottish Orchestra conducted by Thomas Dausgaard. The first piece was by Valentyn Sylvestrov added in as recognition of what is now the war in Ukraine. The Russian pianist Alexander Melnikov was applauded at the end - and he was pretty good. It's very difficult to separate out issues under the current circumstances.
We ordered tickets months ago, and I doubt that the pianist took any part in this.

I don't know how the current situation compares with the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia, which to my surprise happened about the time when I went to hear a Russian orchestra with Mstislav Rostropovich at the RAH. Was that as bloody as this current onslaught, or did we just never find out?

There is absolutely no comparison between the two. Total deaths were under a thousand. Today we have a full on war with both sides well armed .I would be “relieved “ if the final tally is below 30, 000 . If the Ukrainians keep going for some time it could be a lot more than that. If it leads to extended counter-insurgency , in which the Ukrainians have a great deal of experience, then even more I’m afraid .
Interestingly when the Soviet’s invaded in’68 along with other Warsaw Pact countries they took in 250,000 troops - more than now.

[RichardB]

Interestingly when the Soviet’s invaded in’68 along with other Warsaw Pact countries they took in 250,000 troops - more than now.

That was one of the reasons I was so surprised that the invasion took place at all - Czechoslovakia and Hungary, moreover, are much smaller than Ukraine - and no doubt now is one of the reasons why the invasion has not gone as well as was probably intended. I imagine that Putin's generals told him it wasn't feasible but he went ahead and did it anyway, a strategy that didn't work out too well for Hitler.

[teamsaint]

That's a quibble over one word which I used in a much longer post. I'll rephrase it: war crimes. Now move on to the rest.



True. But I wouldn't include either Saudi Arabia or Chile as the democratic West. For Pinochet read Allende there's a point. But we're still talking about history. Neither of these examples are justifications for what Putin is doing.

My main argument against Stop the War is that the chips are down. This isn't a time to say If we hadn't been so guilty, none of this would be happening. Irrelevant in my view - at this moment. The Berlin Wall fell because the peoples dominated by the USSR took to the streets and said, No more. And that's what sticks in Putin's craw.

The only relevant point is how we get out of this mess, not who was guilty of what in Nineteen-hundred-and-freezin'-cold.

It’s not a quibble at all, it is a very important distinction to make.