Ukraine

[Frances_iom]

...how, assuming that he gains a measure of control, he intends to create a stable situation there.

large prison - reopen a couple of the gulags - of course there is always the Polish solution, take the intelligentsia + societal leaders to some ravine and use as target practice.

[teamsaint]

Without being in any way an apologist for Gergiev, I wonder whether a dismissal for not saying anything doesn't set a dangerous precedent.

It is quite difficult in the " I'm not a racist but..." kind of a way to discuss situations such as this without appearing to be an apologist, subtly or otherwise.
But it really is very important to keep discussing them, and to not default automatically, in the way I think you are suggesting, to banning, de-platforming, cancelling, though of course those are options to be kept open. There is nuance. People are sometime misunderstood, or under pressure, or say things in ways that might have been expressed more wisely, or whatever.
Minds have to be changed, for the most part, through processes that can take time, and in ways that may be uncomfortable all round. And the more important the issue, the more difficult that may be.

Not that I am an apologist for Gergiev, obviously, not least because I don't actually know what he has said over the years re Putin's govt.

[RichardB]

Not that I am an apologist for Gergiev, obviously, not least because I don't actually know what he has said over the years re Putin's govt.

That is set out in Flay's link if I'm not mistaken. Gergiev was given an ultimatum by management in Munich to distance himself from the Putin regime, and he failed to do so. Whether Gergiev continues to be a Putin supporter or not, the point here as far as I'm concerned is that compelling someone to say what you think they ought to say, or face punishment, is itself an authoritarian strategy. Is that the road we want to go down?

[ahinton]

That is set out in Flay's link if I'm not mistaken. Gergiev was given an ultimatum by management in Munich to distance himself from the Putin regime, and he failed to do so. Whether Gergiev continues to be a Putin supporter or not, the point here as far as I'm concerned is that compelling someone to say what you think they ought to say, or face punishment, is itself an authoritarian strategy. Is that the road we want to go down?

I should most certainly hope not!

[Bryn]

large prison - reopen a couple of the gulags - of course there is always the Polish solution, take the intelligentsia + societal leaders to some ravine and use as target practice.

I note that Putin's forces have targeted Babi Yar today, damaging the memorial and killing civilians in the process,

[kindofblue]

I note that Putin's forces have targeted Babi Yar today, damaging the memorial and killing civilians in the process,

I noticed that too Bryn, horrific, especially after having accused the Ukranian leadership of being 'Nazis', a preposterous charge. There may well now be no monuments at Babi Yar.

[Ein Heldenleben]

That is set out in Flay's link if I'm not mistaken. Gergiev was given an ultimatum by management in Munich to distance himself from the Putin regime, and he failed to do so. Whether Gergiev continues to be a Putin supporter or not, the point here as far as I'm concerned is that compelling someone to say what you think they ought to say, or face punishment, is itself an authoritarian strategy. Is that the road we want to go down?

Gergiev and Netbreko appear to have a history of backing Russian action in the Ukraine . When it was limited to support for pro- Russian rebels no one really noticed because few could be bothered to study what was going on . Now that it’s a full- on aggressive Russian invasion complete with civilian casualties they are being asked where they stand. It is not “authoritarian” for an employer to ask this. They know that employing a pro-invasion conductor would be both morally wrong and commercial and political suicide. They would almost certainly lose state subsidy . The German government , having doubled defence spending, sanctioned Russia and even perhaps bought nuclear power back into the energy mix are not going to put a single state Euro Gergiev’s way. The so-called “ultimatum” is a way of giving Gergiev the opportunity to correct the public record if it’s wrong.
It is not “punishment” to refuse to employ someone because of their morally contemptible public position if they are employed as the public face of the orchestra. If he were the van driver no one would care. Thing is when you are a public figure like Gergiev you cannot remain silent especially when you’ve spoken out in the past.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30380979

[oddoneout]

If this is correct then it's not only Putin who's a delusional fantasist - from a report in the local paper.

On a visit to Poland - where the most refugees have been crossing the border - Boris Johnson told his Polish counterpart Mateusz Morawiecki: "We stand ready, clearly, to take Ukrainian refugees in our own country, working with you, in considerable numbers, as we always have done and always will."

[my bold]
We are used to the lying habit in this country, sadly, but to stand next to the Polish PM and spout that is beyond unforgiveable, in the context of this

Poland has so far taken in over 377,000 refugees, according to the UN. The Polish government says a further 50,000 are arriving every day.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-60555472

[Petrushka]

Well this is an important point. There seems to have been little discussion in our press about what Putin's actual endgame is, and how, assuming that he gains a measure of control, he intends to create a stable situation there.

Perhaps because no-one knows? It's possible that Putin thought that either:

a) The population would welcome his tanks and troops as liberators, with flowers and cheering crowds, or
b) 'You only have to kick the door in, and the whole rotten structure will collapse'. (A. Hitler, 1941)

The chance of Putin ever creating a stable situation in Ukraine is remote. Putin will need a way out somehow and the only thing that I can see is a Russia as a pariah state for many years to come. I'm still hoping that as his failure becomes ever more apparent, then his generals will have him marched off to the Lubyanka.

[teamsaint]

Perhaps because no-one knows? It's possible that Putin thought that either:

a) The population would welcome his tanks and troops as liberators, with flowers and cheering crowds, or
b) 'You only have to kick the door in, and the whole rotten structure will collapse'. (A. Hitler, 1941)

The chance of Putin ever creating a stable situation in Ukraine is remote. Putin will need a way out somehow and the only thing that I can see is a Russia as a pariah state for many years to come. I'm still hoping that as his failure becomes ever more apparent, then his generals will have him marched off to the Lubyanka.

Well the press are often happy to discuss or pontificate about things that nobody knows for certain or which are unclear , viz most aspects of covid and the public health response.
I should have thought that discussion of possible outcomes in Ukraine might have added substantially to debate on the current situation though.

[RichardB]

It is not “authoritarian” for an employer to ask this. They know that employing a pro-invasion conductor would be both morally wrong and commercial and political suicide. They would almost certainly lose state subsidy . The German government , having doubled defence spending, sanctioned Russia and even perhaps bought nuclear power back into the energy mix are not going to put a single state Euro Gergiev’s way.

Presumably those state euros are the subject of a contract signed by him and the orchestra, without the condition that he should support the political stance taken by the Federal Republic of Germany. He was employed in Munich in 2015, at a time when he had already made public his support for Putin's annexation of Ukraine, since which time he has been banned from performing in Ukraine. The Munich orchestral management knew what they were getting and calculated that it didn't matter.

And where does this end? Look at the way those 11 Labour MPs were forced on pain of losing the whip to retract their support of Stop The War's statement on the Ukraine invasion. What if one of us were required, as a condition for keeping our job, to make a political statement of some kind or another? and if refusal to do so were automatically construed as indicating that we took the opposite viewpoint to the statement? Wouldn't that be an "authoritarian" thing for an employer to do?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Presumably those state euros are the subject of a contract signed by him and the orchestra, without the condition that he should support the political stance taken by the Federal Republic of Germany. He was employed in Munich in 2015, at a time when he had already made public his support for Putin's annexation of Ukraine, since which time he has been banned from performing in Ukraine. The Munich orchestral management knew what they were getting and calculated that it didn't matter.

And where does this end? Look at the way those 11 Labour MPs were forced on pain of losing the whip to retract their support of Stop The War's statement on the Ukraine invasion. What if one of us were required, as a condition for keeping our job, to make a political statement of some kind or another? and if refusal to do so were automatically construed as indicating that we took the opposite viewpoint to the statement? Wouldn't that be an "authoritarian" thing for an employer to do?

As I said no one cared much what he said about the Ukraine before Russia invaded and killed innocent people - now they have and lots of people do - that is life as a public figure. It’s not supposed to be fair.
MPs and chief conductors are public figures. It is perfectly acceptable to make the former who are politicians sign up to a public political position as a condition of staying in the party. . It’s more nuanced with conductors . In my view it is perfectly acceptable to get them to sign contracts promising not to bring the employing organisation into disrepute. Indeed I have signed such contracts in the past . So the question is does his silence bring the orchestra into disrepute. I think it does - so does the management of the orchestra . Others will disagree. It’s irrelevant anyway his career in the West is over.

[RichardB]

So the question is does his silence bring the orchestra into disrepute. I think it does - so does the management of the orchestra

I have to bow to your greater knowledge of employment contracts and their possible contents! The whole thing makes me a bit uneasy, all the same. But as you say his career in the West must now be over, unless he decides to recant.

[Jazzrook]

With Putin becoming increasingly isolated, paranoid and cornered I fear that the threat to unleash his massive nuclear arsenal could become a reality.

JR

[duncan]

As I said no one cared much what he said about the Ukraine before Russia invaded and killed innocent people - now they have and lots of people do - that is life as a public figure.

I stopped going to Gergiev concerts or buying his CDs around ten years ago because of this support for Putin and I know a number of friends who did likewise.

If Netrebko wants to keep her art and politics separate she'll presumably not be performing any Beethoven, Wagner, Verdi, Sibelius, Hindemith, Britten, or Shostakovich (to name only a few of the most obvious) from now on?