Ukraine

[french frank]

The inevitability of some kind of nationalist reaction to the breakup of the Yugoslav confederation following Tito's death was certain once the Balkan region was re-subsumed into the West, as there was no longer an overriding common regional interest as provided by the liberal form of socialism represented by Titoism. Much of the problem of which the present situation is an outcome can be traced back to the west's eagerness to get its mitts on the E bloc countries, viz ideologically exhausted populaces themselves eager for change and the end to monochrome-imposed lifestyles by comparison represented by free choice capitalism, and its failure to do so beyond the states taken under the wings of NATO. And, as can be seen, nationalism can become a mixed metaphor plaything for populism once capitalism in its late, globalised form, is demonstrated to fail.

Yes, but as you describe it - the eagerness has worked both ways. Tito was remarkably successful at keeping the lid on ethnic and religious differences. The dispiriting thing is just how many of the wars and disputes in Europe still stem from ethnic tensions and people's sense of some sort of 'ethnic identity' even when history doesn't support such clear divisions.

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes, but as you describe it - the eagerness has worked both ways. Tito was remarkably successful at keeping the lid on ethnic and religious differences. The dispiriting thing is just how many of the wars and disputes in Europe still stem from ethnic tensions and people's sense of some sort of 'ethnic identity' even when history doesn't support such clear divisions.

The Russian mother I mentioned a few posts back agreed with me that really there is little or no actual ethnic difference between Russians and Ukrainians. Someone mentioned on Today this morning that their two languages are not that dissimilar, and can be mutually understood the way a non-Spanish speaking Italian can understand Spanish, and vice-versa. In the end, as someone will quickly remind us for sure, these disputes boil down to resources; unresolved past grievances are used to divide people who weren't even born at the time.

It really takes twisted logic to blame current generations for the sins of forefathers.

[french frank]

The Russian mother I mentioned a few posts back agreed with me that really there is little or no actual ethnic difference between Russians and Ukrainians. Someone mentioned on Today this morning that their two languages are not that dissimilar, and can be mutually understood the way a non-Spanish speaking Italian can understand Spanish, and vice-versa.

Though she may, of course, hold that they are all 'Russians' really. Ukrainians might disagree. It may be that Slavs have a greater sense of their ethnic differences than, for example, Spanish and Italian?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Though she may, of course, hold that they are all 'Russians' really. Ukrainians might disagree. It may be that Slavs have a greater sense of their ethnic differences than, for example, Spanish and Italian?

I think you’ll find that ethnicity has little to do with it all.The memory in Ukraine is of the Stalin induced great famine of the thirties . It partly explains why some Ukrainians threw in their fortunes with attacking Nazi forces in WW2. Something that In turn led to Russian resentment and retribution .At the moment it seems the Ukrainians are fighting extremely tenaciously - something that doesn’t surprise me. Who knows they might prevail or force a stalemate.
Russian History is full of paradox - one of Stalin’s favourite books / plays was The White Guard . He went to see the play 15 times . It tells the story (from a sympathetic point of view )of “white “counter revolutionaries in Kiev .Magnificent book -a good time to read it.

[Petrushka]

I think you’ll find that ethnicity has little to do with it all.The memory in Ukraine is of the Stalin induced great famine of the thirties . It partly explains why some Ukrainians threw in their fortunes with attacking Nazi forces in WW2. Something that In turn led to Russian resentment and retribution .At the moment it seems the Ukrainians are fighting extremely tenaciously - something that doesn’t surprise me. Who knows they might prevail or force a stalemate.
Russian History is full of paradox - one of Stalin’s favourite books / plays was The White Guard . He went to see the play 15 times . It tells the story (from a sympathetic point of view )of “white “counter revolutionaries in Kiev .Magnificent book -a good time to read it.

If anyone is interested in reading more about the famine that Stalin induced in Ukraine in the 1930s I can recommend 'The Harvest of Sorrow' by Robert Conquest.

At one time, I had two work colleagues in the same office who were of Ukrainian descent and coincidentally, both of their fathers served in the German Army during the Second World War. One of them even showed me a photograph of his father posing proudly for the camera in Wehrmacht uniform.

[kea]

If anyone is interested in reading more about the famine that Stalin induced in Ukraine in the 1930s I can recommend 'The Harvest of Sorrow' by Robert Conquest.

At one time, I had two work colleagues in the same office who were of Ukrainian descent and coincidentally, both of their fathers served in the German Army during the Second World War. One of them even showed me a photograph of his father posing proudly for the camera in Wehrmacht uniform.

I can recommend Fraud, Famine and Fascism by Douglas Tottle, which is relevant to the entirety of this post.

(But this is a discussion topic on which the majority of people remain impervious to historical fact. I probably won't comment further.)

[RichardB]

I can recommend Fraud, Famine and Fascism by Douglas Tottle, which is relevant to the entirety of this post.

I'm not an expert by any means but I have been under the impression that Tottle was a Stalinist apologist whose claims aren't to be taken seriously.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I'm not an expert by any means but I have been under the impression that Tottle was a Stalinist apologist whose claims aren't to be taken seriously.

I couldn’t have put it better myself . I suppose it’s inevitable some one will remark that at one point Conquest’s literary activities were subsidised by the CIA so I thought I’d save them the trouble.

[kea]

I'm not an expert by any means but I have been under the impression that Tottle was a Stalinist apologist whose claims aren't to be taken seriously.

As anyone who fails to uncritically accept western Cold War propaganda, regardless of how blatantly false it might be, is labelled a "Stalinist", I generally consider the label meaningless.

[RichardB]

As anyone who fails to uncritically accept western Cold War propaganda, regardless of how blatantly false it might be, is labelled a "Stalinist", I generally consider the label meaningless.

No, here it has a very precise meaning, namely to denote a supporter of (the politics and ideology of) the USSR.

[eighthobstruction]

....I hear Putin is in trouble - he had a office party in breach of Covid protocols....bit of a hoo haa apparently....

[ardcarp]

The vulnerability of countries bordering Russia is brought into sharp focus. Former USSR territories are the obvious ones. But Finland was always aware of its close location and had to mind its Ps and Qs. Neither it nor Sweden are members of NATO. Norway, which is a NATO member nevertheless has interesting geography. It is a very long thin country, and at its northern end curls round above Sweden and Finland and has a border with Russia...albeit a very small one, up in the Arctic. National Service continues still in Norway, I think. My Norwegian nephew, now 50, had to do it as a young adult. His first six months were spent in that Arctic region near the border, training presumably for combat in such conditions. (He was lucky to spend the remaining period chauffering a NATO Admiral around Oslo in a Mercedes!) I think we in the free Western democracies should learn the lessons of History and stand ready to defend all those proximal countries, including the Baltic States, Poland, Hungary, etc. The current BBC series The Rise of the Nazis is timed well to remind us all of the ease with which despotic dictatorship can run amok. BTW, Putin must be rubbing his hands together over Brexit. Divide and rule.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The vulnerability of countries bordering Russia is brought into sharp focus. Former USSR territories are the obvious ones. But Finland was always aware of its close location and had to mind its Ps and Qs. Neither it nor Sweden are members of NATO. Norway, which is a NATO member nevertheless has interesting geography. It is a very long thin country, and at its northern end curls round above Sweden and Finland and has a border with Russia...albeit a very small one, up in the Arctic. National Service continues still in Norway, I think. My Norwegian nephew, now 50, had to do it as a young adult. His first six months were spent in that Arctic region near the border, training presumably for combat in such conditions. (He was lucky to spend the remaining period chauffering a NATO Admiral around Oslo in a Mercedes!) I think we in the free Western democracies should learn the lessons of History and stand ready to defend all those proximal countries, including the Baltic States, Poland, Hungary, etc. The current BBC series The Rise of the Nazis is timed well to remind us all of the ease with which despotic dictatorship can run amok. BTW, Putin must be rubbing his hands together over Brexit. Divide and rule.

The Royal Marines do annual Arctic training in Norway and one of their NATO roles is the protection of its Northern Flank. They, along with the Norwegian Army, are a very substantial deterrent to anyone foolish enough to use this route as a way into Europe.

[richardfinegold]

Gergiev, Matsuev, Netrebko cancel concerts

Gergiev and Matsuev were supposed to be in New York this weekend with the Vienna PO. Anna canceled concerts in Denmark.
The first two have nauseatingly close personal links to Putin so I am not losing much sleep on their account. Gergiev reportedly is facing a demand by the Mayor of Munich to issue a statement condemning the Ukrainian invasion or his contract with the Munich PO will be terminated.
I worry about the effects on other Russian artists. Will Vasili Petrenko, now, for example, be required to do the same to continue to work in London and Oslo? Let’s not forget that the Russian Government is fully capable of extracting revenge on the family members of those who they deem enemies.
One cannot resist recalling the 1930s, where musicians such as Strauss and Furtwangler were in a bad odor for having made music during the Nazi regime, and Toscanini was lionized as an anti Fascist.

[Petrushka]

Gergiev and Matsuev were supposed to be in New York this weekend with the Vienna PO. Anna canceled concerts in Denmark.
The first two have nauseatingly close personal links to Putin so I am not losing much sleep on their account. Gergiev reportedly is facing a demand by the Mayor of Munich to issue a statement condemning the Ukrainian invasion or his contract with the Munich PO will be terminated.
I worry about the effects on other Russian artists. Will Vasili Petrenko, now, for example, be required to do the same to continue to work in London and Oslo? Let’s not forget that the Russian Government is fully capable of extracting revenge on the family members of those who they deem enemies.
One cannot resist recalling the 1930s, where musicians such as Strauss and Furtwangler were in a bad odor for having made music during the Nazi regime, and Toscanini was lionized as an anti Fascist.

These three artists are well known Putin apologists, and neither Strauss nor Furtwangler (or Karajan), for all their faults, could ever be described as Hitler apologists so, in my view, we have a different situation. Sadly, Gergiev, Matsuev and Nebretko have hitched their cart to the wrong horse and I would say that that their careers in the West are finished.

Other Russian artists, such as the two Petrenko's and Vladimir Jurowski have, as far as I know, kept their distance from Putin and don't, again as far as I know, owe anything to Putin. Jurowski has Ukrainian relatives so he's caught in the middle. Semyon Bychkov condemned the invasion without delay.