Ukraine

[Serial_Apologist]

....very few tanks deployed so far [with 4" armour]...what is getting destroyed by the Ukrainians is light-weight armour vehicles and troop carriers, that is why the Russian Reconaissance force is getting a belting, and is depleting Ukr ammo and toop deployment....

....faux peace talks surely for propoganda in Russia.....

What demonstrators did in Hungary '56 and Czechoslovakia '68 was burn tyres, which fouled up the caterpillar treads of the Russian tanks, immobilising them. Yeah - polluting and all that, but pretty effective. Other brave people dropped molotov cocktails in through the gun turrets: the important thing was to keep out of the way of the guns. Remember the Yeltsin crowds disabling tanks in front of the Kremlin which had just been shelling the building?

[french frank]

but an iron curtain is certainly descending at present

At the moment - while Putin is in control. Will his place be taken by similar hardliners or will the pressures on ordinary people as a result of this adventure force the political will to move back towards the Reagan-Gorbachev era?

Politicians' thinking is diverse and not always clear. Does it really seem to Putin - or Russians - that a Russian western border with NATO countries poses a 'security threat' to Russia? Under what circumstances? In the early 1990s relations between the Russian Federation and NATO were very good, cooperative.

[Cockney Sparrow]

I've read/heard commentators in recent weeks make the point that the real concern it that countries with borders neighbouring Russia, so former Soviet Union "states", having a vote which gives a genuine choice in elections in a democracy. The proximity of that freedom is the threat to Putin and the structure he heads in Russia, obviously because it will continue to foment open opposition, demonstrating that the voters can and do bring about changes in their political leadership......

[Serial_Apologist]

A smaller area to take over but he would automatically be taking on NATO, wouldn't he?

I see from the lunchtime news that NATO aircraft are now patrolling "our" side of Russia's borders. I can't help feeling it is only a matter of time before we see one of these planes being brought down, with the excuse that it has violated Russian airspace. That would be one possible moment. For now I worry about their moving nuclear weapons to sites in Belarus. Presumably NATO has visibility of the locations of these sites, which could be quickly taken out.

[french frank]

I've read/heard commentators in recent weeks make the point that the real concern it that countries with borders neighbouring Russia, so former Soviet Union "states", having a vote which gives a genuine choice in elections in a democracy. The proximity of that freedom is the threat to Putin and the structure he heads in Russia, obviously because it will continue to foment open opposition, demonstrating that the voters can and do bring about changes in their political leadership......

Exactly. The threat is not to Russian security, it's to Putin and his style of government which has its final vestige also in Lukashenko's Belarus - and with the populace there protesting over the last elections now looking decidely 'western'. So it's a threat to them both. What is it that has turned all the former Soviet bloc/republics, one by one, towards the west? The lure of capitalism or the desire for freedom and political independence?

I took a look at what Craig Murray has to say, more than half expecting him to be siding with Putin. Like others, he doesn't do that, though he can blame the west for making it happen in the first place. Similarly in the USA where the Trump faction can't side with my friend Putin ("I know him very well"), but they can blame Biden.
Murray's always interesting because although I don't expect to agree with him, he does highlight problems with the west's political behaviour.

[Frances_iom]

.. What is it that has turned all the former Soviet bloc/republics, one by one, towards the west? ..

the sheer bl**dy nastiness of Russian occupation - try talking to those that lived thru it instead of 'useful idiots' in the west.

[Serial_Apologist]

What is it that has turned all the former Soviet bloc/republics, one by one, towards the west? The lure of capitalism or the desire for freedom and political independence?

Well probably speaking as one of those "useful idiots", for everyday populaces the opportunities beckoning for free consumer choice and above all an end to political oppression; for the budding capitalists and oligarchs, many of them erstwhile Communist bureaucrats and security chiefs, the only economic alternative to a system bankrupted by the west in the early 1980s by the costs involved in keeping up with the resumed arms race. There are not quite a few who, while welcoming the new freedoms, regret the free cultural, educational and health benefits they enjoyed under the old system. I wonder too what Gorbachev must now be thinking about all this.

[Frances_iom]

I was a regular visitor to the old Soviet Union during the 70s as going over Orthodox Xmas saw the best availability of the excellent high culture on offer but being able to wander around the backstreets of Moscow one saw other aspects of life - the Soc Soc (Gorbachev) restrictions on alcohol sale resulting in extremely long queues for Vodka (which appeared to be the universal lubricant of life) being 'policed' by thuggish police might have suggested to some that low culture wasn't quite as happy.

[Dave2002]

Exactly. The threat is not to Russian security, it's to Putin and his style of government which has its final vestige also in Lukashenko's Belarus - and with the populace there protesting over the last elections now looking decidely 'western'. So it's a threat to them both. What is it that has turned all the former Soviet bloc/republics, one by one, towards the west? The lure of capitalism or the desire for freedom and political independence?

I took a look at what Craig Murray has to say, more than half expecting him to be siding with Putin. Like others, he doesn't do that, though he can blame the west for making it happen in the first place. Similarly in the USA where the Trump faction can't side with my friend Putin ("I know him very well"), but they can blame Biden.
Murray's always interesting because although I don't expect to agree with him, he does highlight problems with the west's political behaviour.

So what's so special about Craig Murray?

[french frank]

So what's so special about Craig Murray?

He's a prominent historian, journalist, commentator and ex-ambassador with whom I have sometimes disagreed (eg about the Skripal business) if I have an opinion at all, so I consult him to see what his arguments are. Or, to put it another way, he's outside my echo chamber

[Dave2002]

He's a prominent historian, journalist, commentator and ex-ambassador with whom I have sometimes disagreed (eg about the Skripal business) if I have an opinion at all, so I consult him to see what his arguments are. Or, to put it another way, he's outside my echo chamber

Indeed - but does one take his views seriously? Should one?

Having now followed your suggested link then maybe!

I don't necessarily agree with all of this - but if it's of interest then here - https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

[french frank]

Indeed - but does one take his views seriously? Should one?

He has very decided views, and he has areas of knowledge. But I think he was utterly bonkers on Skripal (can't now remember whether it was British intelligence or Israel that poisoned them, but it was to discredit Putin). But that doesn't mean [I think that] he's bonkers on everything. Taking someone 'seriously' doesn't mean agreeing with everything they say.

[Barbirollians]

I believe I've read most, if not all, of this thread. I accept that if Gergiev and others are known supporters of Putin, and refuse to recant publicly, then they deserve shunning, firing etc.

Yesterday I heard the Chiaroscuro Quartet, whose leader, the brillliant Alina Ibragimova is Russian; and not long ago the highly talented pianist Pavel Kolesnikov. It set me thinking whether people would begin to say they, and other Russian artists, should be punished for Putin's actions. No one here has suggested that, as far as I am aware. But some sporting events involving Russian athletes have been cancelled, I believe. There is a fine line between legitimate 'name and shame' actions, such as those above, and random finger-pointing, as happened in 2020 in various parts of the world with antagonism towards Chinese people (over the possible origins of the pandemic).

I don't think nationality has anything to do with it - support for Putin's regime is the relevant issue.

[Frances_iom]

Craig Murray's site is a real tracker - is he worried about web attacks? or merely intensely curious to know who is accessing his pages and what else they access.

[Ein Heldenleben]

He has very decided views, and he has areas of knowledge. But I think he was utterly bonkers on Skripal (can't now remember whether it was British intelligence or Israel that poisoned them, but it was to discredit Putin). But that doesn't mean [I think that] he's bonkers on everything. Taking someone 'seriously' doesn't mean agreeing with everything they say.

His article is already out of date .BP have dealt with the supposedly crippling prospect of sanctions by getting rid of their entire Rosneft stake at enormous loss to the company. He has underestimated NATO - the response of the German government goes way beyond tokenism. Parts of the article bespeak a weary cynicism which looks like yesterday’s view. There is though quite a lot I agree with. Soviet Russia is a distant memory for most Russians and no memory at all for many. Age must give way to youth and youth doesn’t want war for one very good reason - they are ones who suffer disproportionately.