Ukraine

[Ian Thumwood]

The best thing to do is step up the sanctions against Russia. This will have the best impact.

I have to say that I am really surprised how much worse Trump is than last time....that was bad enough. Time for UK to part ways with America and align more with Europe. I also think we need to get Chinese support in the likelihood of America aggression. It may be unpalatable but I cannot see another option.

[Serial_Apologist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUTMswMjXBI&t=65s

Finding myself all at sea politically on which direction to take right now, I have to trust in the wisdom of Alexander Stubb's viewpoint. Eyes Left, possibly the broadest and most open-minded of the left wing online debating forums now available for supposedly intelligent opinion shaping seems to be come out against any external support for Ukraine in her moment of need. A majority on there sees the country as (a) a battle ground over claimed territory as being less clear-cut than we're actually being told; (b) based on maintream media footage from 2015 from several countries an uncontrolled hotbed of fascist infiltration both in its military arm and its institutions of state; (c) being fought for over rights to the rare earths both sides' mega tech industries need to boost their competitive advantages, and thus of no interest to leftists who see the development of AI etc as solely in the interests of big biz. There doesn't seem much support in explaining that had the Nazis succeeded in invading Britain our ruling orders would in all probability have given carte blanche to British fascists putting patriotism first (such as the Blue Shirts, which my father had supported for a time) as they were probably the best armed and drilled to lead a popular resistance movement in this country.

Under external threat we start from a first principle of defending national sovereignty because that's all we have to go on: the motives of any potential attacker take second place. This all reminds me of the parable (attributed to the Buddha put equally pertinent here) of the man dying from an arrow through his heart, who nevertheless refuses to have it removed until he has been informed of all there is to know about his attacker - their age, sex, place of birth, education, beliefs, motivation, etc.

[Serial_Apologist]

....I think it is a Kissinger thing....an ego thing....(an out in the cold thing)....
I do like this defacto caveat ref negotiations - that if as a back stop "should Russia break a peace", Ukraine would automatically get NATO membership....I'm happy for rfg to post "get real"....

Mandelson has too much form to go into while on the subject of Ukraine - just to remind that he was one of the first to cheer the 2019 Conservative general election victory.

[eighthobstruction]

What would I give up to allow UK to reach 3% Defence Spending....I would give up my Winter Fuel Payment - whoops that's gone already......Um, I would give up the pertinent patching of previous patches on local road potholes.....

[eighthobstruction]

... yes, not helpful.

(- I was wondering if it was an age thing - but he's younger than me (so that can't be the case ))

....I think it is a Kissinger thing....an ego thing....(an out in the cold thing)....
I do like this defacto caveat ref negotiations - that if as a back stop "should Russia break a peace", Ukraine would automatically get NATO membership....I'm happy for rfg to post "get real"....

[vinteuil]

....Mandleson muddying the waters....

... yes, not helpful.

(- I was wondering if it was an age thing - but he's younger than me (so that can't be the case ))

[eighthobstruction]

....Mandleson muddying the waters....

[french frank]

"...millions of American hearts swelled with overflowing pride today to watch President Trump put Zelenskyy in his place." [Stephen Miller] (or Trump puts President Zelenskyy &c ...' )

Big boy hits small boy and crowds cheer.

The problem for 'the Europeans' is that many of the states (inside and outside the EU) are tiny and several are comparatively poor.

[eighthobstruction]

... that is what I see

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUTMswMjXBI&t=65s

[vinteuil]

A Hollowing Out of entire US Government process....Checks and Balances Disappearing...

... that is what I see

.

[eighthobstruction]

All? Triple???

yep, weird numbers eh? no matter how often you show approx actual numbers....this last 24hrs - Defense Secretary Hegseth orders U.S. Cyber Command to cease operations against Russia.... last week JAG 3 top officials dismissed....today Trump bans several mainstream Media from Press Corps....A Hollowing Out of entire US Government process....Checks and Balances Disappearing....Podcasters in charge of the FBI....Tulsi Gabbard Trumps Intelligence advisor (seemingly pro Putin)....30 odd people in the cabinet a mixture of Conspiracy Trolls - Billionaires - ex Trump lawyers - favour doers - Money Givers - Right-wing US Redoubters....etc etc....

,,,,I don't usually read Bloomberg as a source, but they have been good on the weekend Euro Summit....Finish PM Stubb has been very good (and very good English) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc6YWZs7vmo

[french frank]

All that I am trying to say is that perhaps if the Europeans can triple their spending and the US contributes about a quarter of previous that perhaps Ukraine can eake out survival.

All? Triple???

[richardfinegold]

Not clear what is being compared here. These are the BBC Verify figures placed in context. The US may claim to be the biggest single donor but is also the biggest state.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o

I am not sure what the point that you are trying to make is. All that I am trying to say is that perhaps if the Europeans can triple their spending and the US contributes about a quarter of previous that perhaps Ukraine can eake out survival.

[eighthobstruction]

....I heard via Times Radio : that minimum 100k soldiers might be required to keep a peace line in Ukraine - should a peace agreement be signed .....approx 3 x 30k (30k imn field , 30k readying to go +training, 30k resting after being in the field)....https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czep44jn9jyo

[eighthobstruction]

Fwiw I’m unable to cut and paste the links but the UK and Germany appear to have provided 14B and 17B Euros respectively in direct aid to Ukraine in the last 3 yrs; the US roughly 160 billion. As we know these amounts have kept Ukraine afloat at a terrible human cost. If the EU were to triple their contribution and the US were to retain 25% of present support even that looks inadequate. Given present political realities it’s hard to see more support than that being offered .

The only viable solution I see is for the EU to put in place thousands of peacekeepers as human shields, and then hope that all participants in NATO would honor their commitments if they are attacked. Perhaps that would be a future US Administration

Here are some good statistics and ideas within this article....if the link is available across the pond...https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng...sual-explainer