Originally posted by french frank
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Ukraine
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I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.
I am not a number, I am a free man.
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Originally posted by Joseph K View PostThe relevant chapters of Naomi Klein's book The Shock Doctrine argue persuasively that, essentially, the reasons were economic, opening up the country for privatisation.
or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tcUogFo9yE
or https://www.e-ir.info/2015/03/09/one...asion-of-iraq/
Which one appeals?It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.
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Originally posted by Joseph K View PostThe Saudis are destroying Yemen to this day. Why is it we're arming the Saudis and not Yemen?
And why is invading a neighbour any worse than invading a country on the other side of the world? Do Ukrainian lives count more than Iraqi ones simply because of the provenance of the perpetrator?
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Originally posted by richardfinegold View PostIf the Saudi’s, odious though they may be, don’t control the very pro Iranians Houthis in Yemen, then Iran controls the Straits of Hormuz and can choke off oil to Europe.
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Originally posted by RichardB View PostThat is certainly the Saudi line. But there are some really quite precise parallels with Russia/Ukraine in that Saudi Arabia attacked Yemen without provocation, committing numerous atrocities in the process, because its rulers felt that they might be threatened by something at some unspecified point in the future.It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.
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Originally posted by french frank View PostI'd agree with that absolutely. But each case is different. What point is being made by saying the way the west treats the Saudis (in spite of the attack on Yemen) has a relevance to how one views the Russia-Ukraine war and the west's support for Ukraine? One can say this is double standards/hypocrisy, but having said/agreed that - what about the situation in Ukraine?
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Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostIn the sense that NATO countries would appear to be the only available source of the weaponry necessary for dealing with Putin's invaders.
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Originally posted by Bryn View Post"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" seems to be employed by both sides of the argument on the 'Left', whether it be those who seek to place the blame on USA's connection with the Orange Revolution or those who want to see Ukraine supported with weaponry.
Tactically a cleft stick situation. I think Lenin's dictum about transforming an imperialist war into a revolutionary one, turning weapons against one's own oppressors, still holds true as regards what needs to be done, except following decades of common experience in bourgeois democracy one would think it through differently, and not merely I think from the comfort of a Western perspective. Russian soldiers fighting on the eastern front during WW1, dealing in circumstances similar to those of today's conscript invaders with inadequate means and basic provisions, deserted en masse and would prove invaluable to the revolutionary cause in 1917. This could happen in Russia today, except that the circumstances would be very different - a revolutionary working class galvanized by more than a decade of militancy and collective self-organisation set against an weak emergent parliamentary democracy under Kerensky, as against 30 years of political disenchantment and mass disengagement in the wake of "communism".
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Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View PostIn the sense that NATO countries would appear to be the only available source of the weaponry necessary for dealing with Putin's invaders.
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Originally posted by RichardB View Post...The supply of arms from NATO has predictably stopped short of the kind of levels that would be decisive ...
Maybe you can begin to realise just why all the old Soviet empire countries once given the opportunity to escape rapidly joined NATO - there are however still some countries eg Hungary that have for various reasons put them back under the Russian yoke - Turkey's dictator is playing a dangerous doble game.
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Originally posted by RichardB View PostSo what is meant here by "dealing with"? The supply of arms from NATO has predictably stopped short of the kind of levels that would be decisive - because, as has been said before, NATO's principal objective here seems to be to weaken Russia by getting it bogged down in a long term conflict, whatever destruction that might cause in Ukraine. And this is worth supporting, you reckon?
1. NATO and "the West" give up - Russia/Putin "wins".
2. Just enough support to give a sort of stalemate - possibly long term weakening of Russia.
3. Give more suppport to try for a decisive victory by Ukraine and its allies - not certain and perhaps risky.
None of the outcomes is guaranteed as things will change over time anyway. There is already very substantial damage and destruction in Ukraine.
There could be more, but NATO and other countries don't want the destruction to extend further afield.
What do you suggest?
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Originally posted by RichardB View Postas has been said before, NATO's principal objective here seems to be to weaken Russia by getting it bogged down in a long term conflict, whatever destruction that might cause in Ukraine. And this is worth supporting, you reckon?
Originally posted by RichardB View PostAnd this is worth supporting, you reckon?
Originally posted by RichardB View PostSo what is meant here by "dealing with"? The supply of arms from NATO has predictably stopped short of the kind of levels that would be decisiveIt isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.
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