Ukraine

[RichardB]

Until very recently I was hoping that many of the countries to the east would be heading for better times

I can't imagine how you would have got that impression - looking at many of these countries - Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and North Macedonia spring to mind - whatever processes of "civilisation" that might have been initiated in the late 1980s and soon thereafter have been in reverse for some years.

[french frank]

Article in Prospect by George Robertson who was Nato Secretary General and dealt with Putin at the time of the Russia-Nato summit of 2002, and met him nine times. Putin personally signed the Rome declaration including the principle of "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security".

Robertson also reports that a press conference which followed said: 'Ukraine is an independent, sovereign state and it will choose its own path to peace and security ... He asked me when we would invite Russia to join the alliance.'

Obviously a man who has since gained a record of sanctioning wholescale bombing, destruction and the killing of civilians can't be expected to bother with such trivialities as treaties and agreements. Especially when he claims that Ukraine joining Nato imperils Russia's peace and security. But is he an aberration in Russian leadership (dire as the consequences are of that)?

I can't imagine how you would have got that impression - looking at many of these countries - Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and North Macedonia spring to mind - whatever processes of "civilisation" that might have been initiated in the late 1980s and soon thereafter have been in reverse for some years.

There has certainly been a return to Soviet-style authoritarianism/autocracy in some places. But the newly re-elected Orbán, for example has declared that 'Hungary's place is in the EU and Nato.' The threat seems to be that he wants to 'influence' EU reforms.

[RichardB]

the newly re-elected Orbán, for example has declared that 'Hungary's place is in the EU and Nato.'

That's as may be, but since 2010 he has also taken control of several universities, persecuted LGBT people, promoted xenophobic and racist ideas, and in general has much in common with people like Trump and Putin, none of which is exactly civilised in the sense I imagine Dave intends.

[french frank]

That's as may be, but since 2010 he has also taken control of several universities, persecuted LGBT people, promoted xenophobic and racist ideas, and in general has much in common with people like Trump and Putin, none of which is exactly civilised in the sense I imagine Dave intends.

I'm not denying that: he's a monster. But being in the EU and Nato sits awkardly with aligning the country with Putin. Poland, too, is no friend of Putin, but if one is considering the matter of 'peace in Europe', rather than any 'civilising effect' , it's probably better for these states to be 'with' Europe than with 'Soviet' Russia. Though Orbán's desire to reform the EU does sound more like being inside the tent ******* in rather than out.

Ideals can be perfect, reality seldom is.

[Dave2002]

I can't imagine how you would have got that impression - looking at many of these countries - Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and North Macedonia spring to mind - whatever processes of "civilisation" that might have been initiated in the late 1980s and soon thereafter have been in reverse for some years.

I have to concede that I haven't visited all of the countries in your short list, though I have met a fair number who live or have lived in them.

[ardcarp]

I don't know if this has been discussed but some flight schedules abroad are being seriously affected by having to avoid air-space anywhere near Ukraine. The son of a friend of ours is going out to sing Evangelist in St John with Suzuki in Japan. I don't quite get the geography, but he's having to fly somewhere else and spend the night there before boarding a plane to Japan. All expenses paid, luckily, but maybe a tad wearisome.

[Serial_Apologist]

I don't know if this has been discussed but some flight schedules abroad are being seriously affected by having to avoid air-space anywhere near Ukraine. The son of a friend of ours is going out to sing Evangelist in St John with Suzuki in Japan. I don't quite get the geography, but he's having to fly somewhere else and spend the night there before boarding a plane to Japan. All expenses paid, luckily, but maybe a tad wearisome.

Someone was phoning into a radio programme yesterday, asking if it was really necessary for aircraft to fly over Ukraine or Russia in order to reach the Far East. Are planes having to re-route across the Atlantic and then the Pacific, with stopovers in America?

[Frances_iom]

Someone was phoning into a radio programme yesterday, asking if it was really necessary for aircraft to fly over Ukraine or Russia in order to reach the Far East. Are planes having to re-route across the Atlantic and then the Pacific, with stopovers in America?

Didn't Russia close its airspace to those countries that imposed a ban on Russian aircraft using their airports - this possibly curtails the over-the-pole route - many years ago I did a London-SanFranciso-Tokyo route but partly because I had a round the world ticket as sold by Air New Zealand but also had a conference in USA. Also recall that Russian forces + their colleagues in the Russian occupied region shot down an overflying flight - the Dutch authorities tracked the Rocket launcher quickly being taken back to Russia once it was realised they had shot down a civil airliner.

[Dave2002]

I don't know if this has been discussed but some flight schedules abroad are being seriously affected by having to avoid air-space anywhere near Ukraine. The son of a friend of ours is going out to sing Evangelist in St John with Suzuki in Japan. I don't quite get the geography, but he's having to fly somewhere else and spend the night there before boarding a plane to Japan. All expenses paid, luckily, but maybe a tad wearisome.

See post 682 and a few following.

http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?23879-Ukraine&p=879402#post879402

[Bryn]

Lubimov played on the end.

[Dave2002]

Lubimov played on the end.

Not quite clear what actually happened, but it seems that Alexei Lubimov - a Russian pianist born in Moscow - played a piece by Valentyn Silvestrov - a Ukrainian, and the police were called.

Did they try to disrupt the concert?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentyn_Silvestrov

[Bryn]

Not quite clear what actually happened, but it seems that Alexei Lubimov - a Russian pianist born in Moscow - played a piece by Valentyn Silvestrov - a Ukrainian, and the police were called.

Did they try to disrupt the concert?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentyn_Silvestrov

It was a Schubert, Impromptu that Lubimv was playing at the time the police arrived and told him to stop. He refused and continued the end of the piece. The Sivestrov items were songs, sung by Yana Ivanilova, a fellow Russian, and accompanied by Lubimov. Further details may emerge, of course.

https://metro.co.uk/video/russia-police-break-moscow-piano-concert-featuring-ukrainian-music-2662813/

https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/14/russia-police-storm-moscow-concert-where-ukrainian-music-was-played-16466316/?ico=zone-post-strip_item_1_news

[french frank]

Interview (in Deutsche Welle) with 84-year-old Silvestrov, evacuated from Kyiv last month. Puts some more depth into the Lubimov concert situation.

I presume the police were tipped off about the programme but by the time they arrived Lubimov was playing the Schubert.

(Btw, cracking covers on Private Eye in the past two weeks)

[Jazzrook]

Interview (in Deutsche Welle) with 84-year-old Silvestrov, evacuated from Kyiv last month. Puts some more depth into the Lubimov concert situation.

I presume the police were tipped off about the programme but by the time they arrived Lubimov was playing the Schubert.

(Btw, cracking covers on Private Eye in the past two weeks)

Here's a brilliant cover on the current issue of Private Eye:

https://www.private-eye.co.uk/current-issue

JR

[french frank]

Here's a brilliant cover on the current issue of Private Eye:

https://www.private-eye.co.uk/current-issue

JR

That was one of the two I meant. Previous week: 'Lord Lebedev passed security test says PM'

BJ: Have you got the right papers?

EL: Yes, I've got the Evening Standard and the Independent.

https://www.private-eye.co.uk/issue-1569/street-of-shame

"ANOTHER day, another spiral in the west's wholly confected alarm about an imminent Russian invasion of Ukraine," Independent columnist Mary Dejevsky wrote on 21 January. "There is no rationale for such a war whatever, and scant evidence that Putin or anyone in or near the Kremlin has anything of the sort in mind."