Ukraine

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  • RichardB
    Banned
    • Nov 2021
    • 2170

    Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
    I think Tolstoy was of the RichardB party…
    Indeed. And while we're on Russian intellectuals, here is Georgi Plekhanov in 1898 (an opponent of the Bolshevik revolution, it should perhaps be added) on Napoleon:

    Bonaparte was a man of iron energy and was remorseless in the pursuit of his goal. But there were not a few energetic, talented and ambitious egoists in those days besides him. The place Bonaparte succeeded in occupying would, probably, not have remained vacant. Let us assume that the other general who had secured this place would have been more peaceful than Napoleon, that he would not have roused the whole of Europe against himself, and therefore, would have died in the Tuileries and not on the island of St. Helena. In that case, the Bourbons would not have returned to France at all; for them, such a result would certainly have been the “opposite” of what it was. In its relation to the internal life of France as a whole, however, this result would have differed little from the actual result. After the “good sword” had restored order and had consolidated the power of the bourgeoisie, the latter would have tired soon of its barrack-room habits and despotism. A liberal movement would have arisen, similar to the one that arose after the Restoration; the fight would have gradually flared up, and as “good swords” are not distinguished for their yielding nature, the virtuous Louis-Philippe would, perhaps, have ascended the throne of his dearly beloved kinsmen, not in 1830, but in 1820, or in 1825. All such changes in the course of events might, to some extent, have influenced the subsequent political, and through it, the economic life of Europe. Nevertheless, under no circumstances would the final outcome of the revolutionary movement have been the “opposite” of what it was. Owing to the specific qualities of their minds and characters, influential individuals can change the individual features of events and some of their particular consequences, but they cannot change their general trend, which is determined by other forces.
    Last edited by RichardB; 22-03-22, 19:08.

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    • french frank
      Administrator/Moderator
      • Feb 2007
      • 30254

      Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
      Isn’t all this great man vs thrown up by circs debate discussed ad nauseam in those bits of War And Peace that most people skip?
      I think Tolstoy was of the RichardB party…
      I don't really favour either analysis. But I thought the piece HighlandDougie linked to was interesting. It certainly isn't supporting the 'great man' theory to think that it matters that it happens to be Putin who has control. In particular, I was interested in Gabuev's opinion that Putin had got himself into a mess because he kept his plans secret, limited to a small circle, and didn't consult the military/diplomats over what was possible.
      It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

      Comment

      • Dave2002
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 18009

        Originally posted by RichardB View Post
        Just because people aren't posting on this thread doesn't mean they aren't concerned about the issues discussed in it!
        At least one person most likely believes that we’ll all get bored with this issue, and it really will become yesterday’s news.

        That doesn’t seem desirable.

        Comment

        • Historian
          Full Member
          • Aug 2012
          • 641

          Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
          At least one person most likely believes that we’ll all get bored with this issue, and it really will become yesterday’s news.
          That doesn’t seem desirable.
          If so, it wouldn't be the first time. Worth reminding ourselves of what is going on.

          Comment

          • french frank
            Administrator/Moderator
            • Feb 2007
            • 30254

            Originally posted by RichardB View Post
            Indeed. And while we're on Russian intellectuals, here is Georgi Plekhanov in 1898 (an opponent of the Bolshevik revolution, it should perhaps be added) on Napoleon:

            "[…] Owing to the specific qualities of their minds and characters, influential individuals can change the individual features of events and some of their particular consequences, but they cannot change their general trend, which is determined by other forces."
            That doesn't, from my point of view, negate how I see Putin and the particular way he is now pursuing the war in Ukraine.
            It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

            Comment

            • Dave2002
              Full Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 18009

              This article gives several views of the recent state of affairs - https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...er-pomerantsev

              Comment

              • eighthobstruction
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 6432

                Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                Is this now “yesterday’s news?”.

                I hope not. It’s still a major tragedy for many involved and many still need our support.
                ....some of us are rehearsing our acapella versions of Masters of War [in our heads], and wondering if a NATO aircraft carrier might be sold to Ukraine for $1, and Ukr Navy quickly given crash courses in take off and landing....

                ....I am certainly pondering the subject constantly....though for reasons of avoiding being maudling/overkill it does not seem to be high on dog walkers or COOP shoppers conversations....when mentioned the response seems to be a despairing "oooooooeeeh yes"....
                bong ching

                Comment

                • richardfinegold
                  Full Member
                  • Sep 2012
                  • 7657

                  Originally posted by eighthobstruction View Post
                  ....some of us are rehearsing our acapella versions of Masters of War [in our heads], and wondering if a NATO aircraft carrier might be sold to Ukraine for $1, and Ukr Navy quickly given crash courses in take off and landing....

                  ....I am certainly pondering the subject constantly....though for reasons of avoiding being maudling/overkill it does not seem to be high on dog walkers or COOP shoppers conversations....when mentioned the response seems to be a despairing "oooooooeeeh yes"....
                  It is supposed to be much more difficult to fly and land from an Aircraft Carrier than a land based airstrip, so your language of “crash course” may be prophetic. Carriers can also be sitting ducks for the Russian Navy and Air Force. Carriers are used to project military force far from the homeland, not to actually defend it.

                  Comment

                  • eighthobstruction
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 6432

                    .....yes i know....this was typical offbeat 8thO projection....
                    bong ching

                    Comment

                    • Historian
                      Full Member
                      • Aug 2012
                      • 641

                      Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                      This article gives several views of the recent state of affairs - https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...er-pomerantsev
                      Thank you: this was very interesting reading. It looks to the future - in the West as well as Eastern Europe - as well as examining how we have got to where we are.

                      With the failure of the Russian offensives in much of Ukraine, the prospect now is of a prolonged war with the concomitant heavy casualties (on both sides) and destruction. It is important that we continue to support Ukraine even after the war is over, as there will be a huge rebuilding effort needed.

                      Comment

                      • Dave2002
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 18009

                        A new way to start a music festival - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

                        Comment

                        • french frank
                          Administrator/Moderator
                          • Feb 2007
                          • 30254

                          I was about to express doubt as to the wisdom of Biden essentially uttering the words "regime change", but I see Macron has made his view clear. The idea of 'regime change' (however desirable it may be) will be a red rag to a bull in some places and fire up a lot of ordinary people.

                          13.10 'Escalation of words could prevent ceasefire, says Macron'

                          It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                          Comment

                          • Serial_Apologist
                            Full Member
                            • Dec 2010
                            • 37617

                            Here's Varoufakis' slightly edited take on all this.

                            Yanis Varoufakis talks about the only option on the table to stop the war in Ukraine and why the US might torpedo it. As part of a broader discussion with Ro...

                            Comment

                            • Joseph K
                              Banned
                              • Oct 2017
                              • 7765

                              Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                              Here's Varoufakis' slightly edited take on all this.

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCRYG7Z48Vk


                              Thanks for this. Interesting hearing his rebuttal of the idea of 'Westplaining'.

                              Comment

                              • Dave2002
                                Full Member
                                • Dec 2010
                                • 18009

                                Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                                Here's Varoufakis' slightly edited take on all this.

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCRYG7Z48Vk
                                Some interesting thoughts there, though that doesn't mean I have to agree with much of it. Just as he maintains the "right" to disagree with others.

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