Originally posted by teamsaint
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Ukraine
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Originally posted by Bryn View PostQuite! It was depressing, at the time, how many on the 'left', bought into the war on the basis that Sadam Hussein was a nasty piece of work. Certainly, he was, but the war served very much to stir up a hornets' nest which the people of the region continue to live with. The internal contradictions of a given society are rarely resolved by external intervention, whether they have oil or not.
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Originally posted by french frank View PostWhatever mistakes were made in Iraq, Libya, Syria - they weren't aimed at Russia, more at the type of leadership of those countries which finds no place in the West but which Putin seemingly admires.
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For me the most important part of Chomsky's interview is this:
The options that remain after the invasion are grim. The least bad is support for the diplomatic options that still exist, in the hope of reaching an outcome not too far from what was very likely achievable a few days ago: Austrian-style neutralization of Ukraine, some version of Minsk II federalism within. Much harder to reach now. And — necessarily — with an escape hatch for Putin, or outcomes will be still more dire for Ukraine and everyone else, perhaps almost unimaginably so.
Very remote from justice. But when has justice prevailed in international affairs? Is it necessary to review the appalling record once again?
Like it or not, the choices are now reduced to an ugly outcome that rewards rather than punishes Putin for the act of aggression — or the strong possibility of terminal war.
I hope those in positions of power are considering such questions too. But (like the US president in Don't Look Up) they might well be more concerned with their own reputations as "strong leaders" than with the survival of human civilisation.
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Originally posted by teamsaint View PostI wouldn’t call some of what happened in Iraq, Syria, Libya mistakes. The WMD nonsense was quite deliberate, and very obvious even at the time. Blair was not acting in the interests of his people IMO.
Originally posted by Joseph K View PostThe mistakes made 'in' those countries was going there in the first place! 'Finds no place in the West', except we were/are friends of such countries e.g. Saudi Arabia, Pinochet's Chile...
My main argument against Stop the War is that the chips are down. This isn't a time to say If we hadn't been so guilty, none of this would be happening. Irrelevant in my view - at this moment. The Berlin Wall fell because the peoples dominated by the USSR took to the streets and said, No more. And that's what sticks in Putin's craw.
The only relevant point is how we get out of this mess, not who was guilty of what in Nineteen-hundred-and-freezin'-cold.It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.
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Originally posted by RichardB View PostFor me the most important part of Chomsky's interview is this:
Like it or not, the choices are now reduced to an ugly outcome that rewards rather than punishes Putin for the act of aggression — or the strong possibility of terminal war.It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.
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Last night we went to a concert with Brahms Piano Concerto with the BBC Scottish Orchestra conducted by Thomas Dausgaard. The first piece was by Valentyn Sylvestrov added in as recognition of what is now the war in Ukraine. The Russian pianist Alexander Melnikov was applauded at the end - and he was pretty good. It's very difficult to separate out issues under the current circumstances.
We ordered tickets months ago, and I doubt that the pianist took any part in this.
I don't know how the current situation compares with the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia, which to my surprise happened about the time when I went to hear a Russian orchestra with Mstislav Rostropovich at the RAH. Was that as bloody as this current onslaught, or did we just never find out?
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Originally posted by Dave2002 View PostLast night we went to a concert with Brahms Piano Concerto with the BBC Scottish Orchestra conducted by Thomas Dausgaard. The first piece was by Valentyn Sylvestrov added in as recognition of what is now the war in Ukraine. The Russian pianist Alexander Melnikov was applauded at the end - and he was pretty good. It's very difficult to separate out issues under the current circumstances.
We ordered tickets months ago, and I doubt that the pianist took any part in this.
I don't know how the current situation compares with the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia, which to my surprise happened about the time when I went to hear a Russian orchestra with Mstislav Rostropovich at the RAH. Was that as bloody as this current onslaught, or did we just never find out?
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Originally posted by Serial_Apologist;877050IThe objective dynamic unleashed would have had qualitative implications, however, as it threatened the monopoly of bureaucratic power, taking nominal public ownership out of the hands of the privileged top layer and handing it to control from the base, as had been outlined in Lenin's State and Revolution. Power was restored to top-down, and Dubcek was imprisoned, and later became a forestry worker, from what I remember.
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Originally posted by french frank View PostNeither of these examples are justifications for what Putin is doing.
Originally posted by french frank View PostMy main argument against Stop the War is that the chips are down.
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Originally posted by Dave2002 View PostLast night we went to a concert with Brahms Piano Concerto with the BBC Scottish Orchestra conducted by Thomas Dausgaard. The first piece was by Valentyn Sylvestrov added in as recognition of what is now the war in Ukraine. The Russian pianist Alexander Melnikov was applauded at the end - and he was pretty good. It's very difficult to separate out issues under the current circumstances.
We ordered tickets months ago, and I doubt that the pianist took any part in this.
I don't know how the current situation compares with the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia, which to my surprise happened about the time when I went to hear a Russian orchestra with Mstislav Rostropovich at the RAH. Was that as bloody as this current onslaught, or did we just never find out?
Interestingly when the Soviet’s invaded in’68 along with other Warsaw Pact countries they took in 250,000 troops - more than now.
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Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View PostInterestingly when the Soviet’s invaded in’68 along with other Warsaw Pact countries they took in 250,000 troops - more than now.
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Originally posted by french frank View PostThat's a quibble over one word which I used in a much longer post. I'll rephrase it: war crimes. Now move on to the rest.
True. But I wouldn't include either Saudi Arabia or Chile as the democratic West. For Pinochet read Allende there's a point. But we're still talking about history. Neither of these examples are justifications for what Putin is doing.
My main argument against Stop the War is that the chips are down. This isn't a time to say If we hadn't been so guilty, none of this would be happening. Irrelevant in my view - at this moment. The Berlin Wall fell because the peoples dominated by the USSR took to the streets and said, No more. And that's what sticks in Putin's craw.
The only relevant point is how we get out of this mess, not who was guilty of what in Nineteen-hundred-and-freezin'-cold.I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.
I am not a number, I am a free man.
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