Ukraine

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes, and on Iraq etc, the (other) problem I have with the Stop the War Coalition is the claim that 'We were right about Iraq, we were right about Afghanistan, we were right about Libya'. No proof of that: just because Solution A was an abject failure doesn't mean that Solution B would have succeeded.

The point is, when you have fighting happening on the ground after one country attacked another, it doesn't do to be 'even-handed'. It reeks of Trump's 'There are good people on both sides' because he didn't want to condemn one side.

Stop the War weren’t right about any of them . Had we wanted to effect “nation-building” in any of those countries it could have been done. But it it would have needed a commitment on the scale of the Marshall Plan in post war Germany and we weren’t prepared to stump up. The damage we inflicted on Germany was on a scale several orders higher than that of Iraq or Afghanistan. But we spent the equivalent of trillions on rebuilding , constructing the post war Germany , its trade unions, its political system , even its public service broadcasters. Closer to our time I had some former journalist colleagues working hard to create independent journalism and broadcasting in Serbia / Croatia .We weren’t prepared to do that in those three African / Middle Eastern countries and it is our shame. Sometimes I wonder if it’s because an “they’re not European , so why bother? “ attitude a terrible echo of colonialism. Ordinary people in those countries are crying out for freedom.

[eighthobstruction]

I would suggest the problem is not NATO at all. The problem is Putin. In spite of the US right blaming Biden for the Russian aggression, the West and NATO have been very restrained.

....of course the problem is Putin.....he has been angry since loss of Ukr to Orange Revolution in [2004?]....his emotion is revenge....

[Ein Heldenleben]

too late - the rot set in years ago with Thatcher when privatisation of the energy supply + distribution would guarantee that short term profits would prevent any long term thought re safety and future needs - likewise research + development were seen as too costly overheads thus we cannot now even design our own nuclear stations let alone make any of the key components.

Spent decades reading Dieter Helm on this - every single one of his predictions has come to pass. I think it is solvable :
l I think we could have a viable nuclear energy industry but for three problems . The cost , the opposition from locals and the huge problem of waste disposal. We can’t even get rid of the waste from our nuclear subs - 16 or so are lying about 1km from where I’m typing and they still have the rods in them. Not a nice feeling….

[Serial_Apologist]

Stop the War weren’t right about any of them . Had we wanted to effect “nation-building” in any of those countries it could have been done. But it it would have needed a commitment on the scale of the Marshall Plan in post war Germany and we weren’t prepared to stump up. The damage we inflicted on Germany was on a scale several orders higher than that of Iraq or Afghanistan. But we spent the equivalent of trillions on rebuilding , constructing the post war Germany , its trade unions, its political system , even its public service broadcasters. Closer to our time I had some former journalist colleagues working hard to create independent journalism and broadcasting in Serbia / Croatia .We weren’t prepared to do that in those three African / Middle Eastern countries and it is our shame. Sometimes I wonder if it’s because an “they’re not European , so why bother? “ attitude a terrible echo of colonialism. Ordinary people in those countries are crying out for freedom.

This will be a controversial view, but Nazi Germany was a once-in-a-lifetime lesson to be learned in perpetuity because its causes could have been enacted in any one of the countries forced into having to defeat it. Fascism is the last resort of a failed capitalism left unopposed. Intervention elsewhere, in the postwar period, has been the problem all along, right back to the times of slavery, and trying to make good doesn't work out - peoples subjected to "nation building" rightly have long memories; poor education of these past historical realities leave legacies no good intentions can undo - and what purpose do these "good intentions" end up serving (rhetorical question)? In the end nations have be self-determining to make their own histories; "nation-building" merely fosters a mentality of impotence, waiting on handouts to make up for World Bank and IMF interest repayments on loans. Freedom requires co-operation between so-called "developing countries" to the point where they can form self-sufficient economic blocs, protect their own ecosystems and political models, and name their prices for stuff the West wants because it can't grow it for itself, and have our solidarity.

[Ein Heldenleben]

This will be a controversial view, but Nazi Germany was a once-in-a-lifetime lesson to be learned in perpetuity because its causes could have been enacted in any one of the countries forced into having to defeat it. Fascism is the last resort of a failed capitalism left unopposed. Intervention elsewhere, in the postwar period, has been the problem all along, right back to the times of slavery, and trying to make good doesn't work out - peoples subjected to "nation building" rightly have long memories; poor education of these past historical realities leave legacies no good intentions can undo - and what purpose do these "good intentions" end up serving (rhetorical question)? In the end nations have be self-determining to make their own histories; "nation-building" merely fosters a mentality of impotence, waiting on handouts to make up for World Bank and IMF interest repayments on loans. Freedom requires co-operation between so-called "developing countries" to the point where they can form self-sufficient economic blocs, protect their own ecosystems and political models, and name their prices for stuff the West wants because it can't grow it for itself, and have our solidarity.

Not so much controversial as wrong. The list of democracies (some flawed ) created in Europe includes Czech Republic , Slovakia , the Baltic states

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/democracy-countries

Some of these are “built nations “ . Others aren’t. Your debt argument is way out of date. Many of the most indebted nations (some possibly on the brink of IMF / World Bank bailout ) are first world nations. Some of the lowest debts to gdp ratios are in third world African countries (also indeed Russia ) . We could learn a lot from them about the benefits of sacrificing present day consumption for a secure future of our children. They just need to tackle the corruption problem.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/debt-to-gdp-ratio-by-country

[eighthobstruction]

....but in many cases they have no infrastructure , health service, education service etc....but they are fortunately free of considering 'cost/benefit analysis' questions....which drive the gravy train/treadmill of 'growth....and push us further away from sustainiblity....

[Ein Heldenleben]

....but in many cases they have no infrastructure , health service, education service etc....but they are fortunately free of considering 'cost/benefit analysis' questions....which drive the gravy train/treadmill of 'growth....and push us further away from sustainiblity....

Don’t worry too much . Some of them are doing alright …

https://www.investmentmonitor.ai/insights/five-countries-investors-watch-2022-african

Some of these “third world” African nations have amongst the highest growth rates in the world . The demographics are in their favour. These countries put our growth rates in the shade . They neither ask for nor need our sympathy. The key question is : in our obsession with net zero do we deny them the increase in the standard of living we have enjoyed since 1945? . Do we hog all the historic carbon we’ve enjoyed and deny them their future share ? When they all want cars (which they will ) we can’t really get hoity toity can we? Maybe the Sahara will be one giant solar farm …

[eighthobstruction]

....yep, indeed, for sure....

[Dave2002]

Not so much controversial as wrong. The list of democracies (some flawed ) created in Europe includes Czech Republic , Slovakia , the Baltic states

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/democracy-countries

Some of these are “built nations “ . Others aren’t. Your debt argument is way out of date. Many of the most indebted nations (some possibly on the brink of IMF / World Bank bailout ) are first world nations. Some of the lowest debts to gdp ratios are in third world African countries (also indeed Russia ) . We could learn a lot from them about the benefits of sacrificing present day consumption for a secure future of our children. They just need to tackle the corruption problem.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/co...tio-by-country

Sure - but Afghanistan does (arguably) very "well" on the debt- GDP ratio! That particular measure presumably means one of several things.

The country doesn't borrow very much - so perhaps has very poor facilities.
The country has very high productivity and manages to sell many of its products and services - not going to be the case for many of the countries with a "good" rating by this measure.
Maybe some other combinations in between.

Re the other measure relating to democracy - Canada does well - but what does it actually do so much better than some other countries? Who has decided on the scores, and how are they measured?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Sure - but Afghanistan does (arguably) very "well" on the debt- GDP ratio! That particular measure presumably means one of several things.

The country doesn't borrow very much - so perhaps has very poor facilities.
The country has very high productivity and manages to sell many of its products and services - not going to be the case for many of the countries with a "good" rating by this measure.
Maybe some other combinations in between.

Re the other measure relating to democracy - Canada does well - but what does it actually do so much better than some other countries? Who has decided on the scores, and how are they measured?

On democracy there’s quite a good explanation on the site itself . On debt yes it’s a crude measure. You also need to look at the type of debt i.e its maturity and , crucially who owns it. On the face of it Japan’s debt looks ominous . But it’s largely owned by the Japanese ( they are intensely patriotic) they will never go bust. It sits in the form of bonds in the pension funds of its ageing population and the consequence of it all is spluttering growth and economic stagnation . Afghanistan doesn’t have a functioning economy - very difficult to ascertain what’s going on there economically.
The general point is that Africa has higher growth ( ignoring covid years ) a younger demographic and lower debt to gdp than many first world countries (including the UK ) with their ageing populations. The problem we have is how do we pay for that ageing population’s social care and health needs and now , it seems, extra defence spending?*

Answers on a post card please to Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer…

* the answer is likely to be higher taxes

[Joseph K]

The problem we have is how do we pay for that ageing population’s social care and health needs and now ,

Answer is you don't - you strip it away in what's called austerity, resulting in thousands of avoidable deaths.

* the answer is likely to be higher taxes

... but not on the heads of those most capable of paying them.

[teamsaint]

The problem we have is how do we pay for that ageing population’s social care and health needs and now , it seems, extra defence spending?*

Answers on a post card please to Boris Johnson and Keir Starmer…

* the answer is likely to be higher taxes

Keep people working for 45 years. Which is what a lot of us are having to do.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Keep people working for 45 years. Which is what a lot of us are having to do.

Yep that is the conclusion I’ve come to . 42 years clocked maybe another 2 or 3 to go. Apologies for off thread but MUCH MUCH more must be done to encourage and welcome the 60 / 65 plus back into the workplace. Unfortunately I’ve worked in an industry which is obsessed with youth . Ageism is the one ism that no sees to care about ….

[Ein Heldenleben]

Answer is you don't - you strip it away in what's called austerity, resulting in thousands of avoidable deaths.




... but not on the heads of those most capable of paying them.

If you’re arguing for the rich paying more I don’t have a problem with that. If you’re arguing for well funded public services ditto..
I’ve had a very comfortable life with a very good education paid for in its entirety by the state . If it s time to stump up it’s time to stump up. (Most of my friends think I’m mad)

[RichardB]

Stop the War weren’t right about any of them . Had we wanted to effect “nation-building” in any of those countries it could have been done. But it it would have needed a commitment on the scale of the Marshall Plan in post war Germany and we weren’t prepared to stump up.

But who is this "we"? When did we (you and me and the other contributors to this discussion) ever have a choice in the matter? - I mean when elections generally involve making a choice between subtly different flavours of neoliberalism, which will always favour increased "defence spending" (= increased "weapons industry profits") over taking care of ordinary people whether at home or abroad. Which is why there's always an assumption that throwing more weapons into places already saturated with them is somehow going to solve anything, even though it never does (which is why Stop the War actually have been right every time!).