Ukraine

**french frank** · 11-03-25, 20:07

Originally posted by eighthobstruction View Post

Trump restarts Ukraine intelligence sharing and military assistance........... on/off...

The Cunning Plan is to keep Putin guessing

**eighthobstruction** · 11-03-25, 20:17

....Yes this time with 37.5 % special offer with a free crystal palace ....a double half hitch and two round twists....
....Rubio successful today.... (but constantly touching/readjusting his suit in press conference....as if he is wired up....[as if])

**Petrushka** · 11-03-25, 21:37

Originally posted by french frank View Post

The Cunning Plan is to keep Putin guessing

He's keeping everyone guessing. My own thought is that he is attempting to force a peace, perhaps with that Nobel Peace Prize in mind, but without much interest in what comes after as that will be Europe's problem.

**Dave2002** · 12-03-25, 00:04

Originally posted by Petrushka View Post

He's keeping everyone guessing. My own thought is that he is attempting to force a peace, perhaps with that Nobel Peace Prize in mind, but without much interest in what comes after as that will be Europe's problem.

I don't know whether he's keeping everyone guessing, but I am certainly completely fooled. Is this a master plan, or is it a random walk which might just happen to hit a path worth following? It is possible he doesn't have a detailed plan or know what's going on, but something good might come out of it ..... or not!

I have seen this kind of behavour lead to good outcomes before - though rarely, but one participant had no clear idea what he was doing even though it turned out well for him in the end. Others thought he played a very smart game, but as far as I could tell he vacillated and didn't know what to do until finally the better offer turned up.

If there is a good outcome I'll congratulate him [DJT], though there isn't too much to suggest that things are really going to work out. It's far to early to tell.

**french frank** · 12-03-25, 10:03

Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post

If there is a good outcome I'll congratulate him [DJT]

The ends justifying the means? It's ironic that the would-be Nobel-winning Man of Peace picks fights more or less indiscriminately (mostly with friends, less so with enemies).

" [...] had been a tyrant, and the revolts his misrule provoked sparked a series of civil wars that for a time threatened the survival of the [...] and caused widespread misery."

**vinteuil** · 12-03-25, 11:27

Originally posted by french frank View Post

The ends justifying the means? It's ironic that the would-be Nobel-winning Man of Peace picks fights more or less indiscriminately (mostly with friends, less so with enemies).

" [...] had been a tyrant, and the revolts his misrule provoked sparked a series of civil wars that for a time threatened the survival of the [...] and caused widespread misery."

... in the case of Nero, neither ends nor means : I feel the same about 'King' DT

.

**eighthobstruction** · 12-03-25, 13:15

....has anyone done a search for - who coined the phrase : "the ends justifying the means".... sounds very much like "what's done is done"....also sounds very Shylockish....

Of course with Rump we have neverending ends which don't end (or do end) when they need to end or should never have started....Churchillian - not beginning of end blaa end of beginning...

Rump very (tremendously) lucky that he does not have to appear in debates or account for himself on a regular Weds....as is happening at this moment in Westminster...(as am I - lucky not to have to debate....)

**vinteuil** · 12-03-25, 13:21

Originally posted by eighthobstruction View Post

....has anyone done a search for - who coined the phrase : "the ends justifying the means"....

... usually attributed to Macchiavelli in various other formulations -

Machiavelli Said, "the Ends Justify the Means" - Fact or Myth?

https://factmyth.com/factoids/machiavelli-said-the-ends-justify-the-means/

Niccolò Machiavelli never said, "the ends justify the means," although he did allude to a complex version of the concept in his Prince.

.

**eighthobstruction** · 12-03-25, 13:35

Ah yes Fact/ Myth that most erudite of sources....( anyone remember - Weekend / Reveille/ Titbits....) thank you

.... in those days I was a paperboy and just judged things by whether they might have women in bikini's in them (sorry for grammar)....

**Serial_Apologist** · 12-03-25, 15:52

Originally posted by eighthobstruction View Post

Ah yes Fact/ Myth that most erudite of sources....( anyone remember - Weekend / Reveille/ Titbits....) thank you

.... in those days I was a paperboy and just judged things by whether they might have women in bikini's in them (sorry for grammar)....

Women belonging to bikinis seems indeed somehow analogous to the notion of ends justifying means.

**Dave2002** · 12-03-25, 16:40

Originally posted by french frank View Post

The ends justifying the means? It's ironic that the would-be Nobel-winning Man of Peace picks fights more or less indiscriminately (mostly with friends, less so with enemies).

" [...] had been a tyrant, and the revolts his misrule provoked sparked a series of civil wars that for a time threatened the survival of the [...] and caused widespread misery."

I did write "if" - and also did not specify what a "good outcome" might be.

However, if by any chance there is a good outcome I'll wait a while before saying "hurrah!".

**Serial_Apologist** · 13-03-25, 00:04

Two developments make me tentatively more positive than I've been feeling as regards Ukraine for the past few weeks.

Firstly Trump appears to be getting hostile responses from American public opinion over siding with Putin. Secondly, two possibilities: 1) his team's calculations are rejected by Putin, in which case Trump will be seen as having utterly failed - his reputation for god-like foresight will have been dashed; 2) Putin accepts and there is a ceasefire, on which further negotiations, with or without Zelensky, will depend.

**Petrushka** · 13-03-25, 13:22

Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post

Two developments make me tentatively more positive than I've been feeling as regards Ukraine for the past few weeks.

Firstly Trump appears to be getting hostile responses from American public opinion over siding with Putin. Secondly, two possibilities: 1) his team's calculations are rejected by Putin, in which case Trump will be seen as having utterly failed - his reputation for god-like foresight will have been dashed; 2) Putin accepts and there is a ceasefire, on which further negotiations, with or without Zelensky, will depend.

The fact that, as of this moment, there has been no official response from Putin leads me to believe that he realises that Trump/Zelensky have boxed him into a corner. Two possible scenarios:

1: Putin refuses a ceasefire. Everyone will see that he has no interest in peace. Trump will then provide everything Ukraine needs to finish the job.

2: Putin accepts ceasefire. This will be seen as a defeat by the Russian people and, more importantly, the oligarchs. Putin's days will be numbered.

**french frank** · 13-03-25, 14:26

Originally posted by Petrushka View Post

1: Putin refuses a ceasefire. Everyone will see that he has no interest in peace. Trump will then provide everything Ukraine needs to finish the job.

"Our aim is long-lasting peaceful settlement which takes account of our country's legitimate interests and concerns."

What are Russia's "legitimate interests"? Zelensky seems to have conceded that membership of NATO is off the table. What they consider to be their interests are what they declare them to be, legitimate or not. Likewise their concerns. And Trump can perform a volte-face within a matter of hours on anything, it seems. I've yet to see anything that he's done - and there's been a lot - that I would think was for the good of anything but his ego.

**eighthobstruction** · 13-03-25, 17:04

How about....3) Putin signs ceasefire - Putin breaks ceasefire....

Ukraine

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