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  • Serial_Apologist
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 37616

    Originally posted by Boilk
    RT UK has indeed been taken off air, with Ofcom hiding behind the suspicious excuse that RT is being investigated on 15 accounts of impartiality, which sounds quite bad until you realise it will no doubt turn out to be ONE bit of reportage that was shown 15 times on a repeating hourly bulletin, much like the BBC 24 hour news format. You don't need to shut down a channel WHILE you investigate it (they didn't when they investigated RT reporting of the Salisbury Skripal poisonings) but only perhaps AFTER adverse conclusive findings.

    It seems the UK is following in the footsteps of EU countries in not wanting the public to have access to an alternative narrative and to be able decide for themselves as to the veracity of what they see and hear (apparently we're all too dumb to do that and might believe every word of it!).

    US journalist Robert Bridge makes important points on the breathtaking double standards in the West's response to Russian vs US military interventions - but it seems only a Russian website will host such an enlightening article.
    It might equally be demanded that NATO chiefs from the last 3 decades be brought on to explain the organisation's continuing expansion after the downfall of the USSR. Nobody in the mainstream media seems to be asking this important question. Was it supposed to protect former Soviet Bloc countries from a Russian threat that would proceed from that country's effective isolation, when the tacit default position granted Russia the welcome back status of having returned to civilisation, having overthrown Communism? Or to defend said countries against rising Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism, when militarism's apologists were at the same time arguing that future wars would not be of the massed armies type represented by what is now happening?

    I'd really like to know - these aren't rhetorical questions.
    Last edited by Serial_Apologist; 02-03-22, 23:54.

    Comment

    • RichardB
      Banned
      • Nov 2021
      • 2170

      Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
      I'd really like to know - these aren't rhetorical questions.
      I think the answer has to do with the priorities of the "military-industrial complex".

      Comment

      • teamsaint
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 25195

        Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
        It might equally be demanded that NATO chiefs from the last 3 decades be brought on to explain the organisation's continuing expansion after the downfall of the USSR. Nobody in the mainstream media seems to be asking this important question. Was it supposed to protect former Soviet Bloc countries from a Russian threat that would proceed from that country's effective isolation, when the tacit default position granted Russia the welcome back status of having returned to civilisation, having overthrown Communism? Or to defend said countries against rising Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism, when militarism's apologists were at the same time arguing that future wars would not be of the massed armies type represented by what is not happening?

        I'd really like to know - these aren't rhetorical questions.
        Not enough questions are being asked, as we default ( yet again) to binary positions. ( though obviously Russia should get out of Ukraine ).
        It seems to me, for better or worse (probably worse) that Spheres of Influence are a real thing, and if they apply in one part of the world ,( which they do) they can be expected to apply elsewhere. To ignore the fact that Russia would have understandable concerns at having Nato countries so close to Moscow , and at the same time ignoring the regular resort to arms by both Russia and the USA , is one part of what has contributed to this situation.
        I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

        I am not a number, I am a free man.

        Comment

        • Jazzrook
          Full Member
          • Mar 2011
          • 3067

          Originally posted by Boilk
          RT UK has indeed been taken off air, with Ofcom hiding behind the suspicious excuse that RT is being investigated on 15 accounts of impartiality, which sounds quite bad until you realise it will no doubt turn out to be ONE bit of reportage that was shown 15 times on a repeating hourly bulletin, much like the BBC 24 hour news format. You don't need to shut down a channel WHILE you investigate it (they didn't when they investigated RT reporting of the Salisbury Skripal poisonings) but only perhaps AFTER adverse conclusive findings.

          It seems the UK is following in the footsteps of EU countries in not wanting the public to have access to an alternative narrative and to be able decide for themselves as to the veracity of what they see and hear (apparently we're all too dumb to do that and might believe every word of it!).

          US journalist Robert Bridge makes important points on the breathtaking double standards in the West's response to Russian vs US military interventions - but it seems only a Russian website will host such an enlightening article.
          The Robert Bridge article was excellent but it's becoming increasingly difficult to access alternative viewpoints to the mainstream media.

          JR

          Comment

          • RichardB
            Banned
            • Nov 2021
            • 2170

            Originally posted by Jazzrook View Post
            The Robert Bridge article was excellent but it's becoming increasingly difficult to access alternative viewpoints to the mainstream media.

            News, analysis from the Middle East & worldwide, multimedia & interactives, opinions, documentaries, podcasts, long reads and broadcast schedule.

            New Media for a Different Politics

            Comment

            • oddoneout
              Full Member
              • Nov 2015
              • 9148

              I haven't read the Robert Bridge and I assume the discussion here is more about the political analysis aspect but I did find this article thought provoking

              This I have to go through more thoroughly but the last sentence struck me
              It’s about resisting the temptation to believe that your enemy’s enemy must be your friend.
              The grim truth is that for years, a small part of the ‘anti-imperialist’ left has been recycling Putin’s falsehoods, says Guardian columnist George Monbiot

              Comment

              • RichardB
                Banned
                • Nov 2021
                • 2170

                Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
                This I have to go through more thoroughly but the last sentence struck me
                I have much respect for George Monbiot but this lashing out at the Stop the War Coalition is hysterical and highly inaccurate. To read his words you would think that the organisation is critical only of NATO, and takes its talking points direct from Russian propaganda, neither of which is remotely the case

                Comment

                • DracoM
                  Host
                  • Mar 2007
                  • 12962

                  Comment

                  • Ein Heldenleben
                    Full Member
                    • Apr 2014
                    • 6760

                    Originally posted by RichardB View Post
                    I have much respect for George Monbiot but this lashing out at the Stop the War Coalition is hysterical and highly inaccurate. To read his words you would think that the organisation is critical only of NATO, and takes its talking points direct from Russian propaganda, neither of which is remotely the case
                    From what I’ve seen of Stop The Wars material it does seem to partially advocate the “West / NATO has provoked Putin “ narrative. There’s not much evidence for that really. Monbiot’s article was in my view spot on. But then I’m one of those people who believe it’s only through the existence of NATO that we are able to have these discussions. The more than doubling of Germany’s defence spending over the weekend was a big historical moment. Finally as Europeans we are standing up to this appalling man and tackling the financial , intellectual, and social media corruption he has spread through our countries.

                    Comment

                    • french frank
                      Administrator/Moderator
                      • Feb 2007
                      • 30254

                      As far as Russia and NATO are concerned, Prospect Magazine has an article by the UK's former anbassador to NATO, Peter Ricketts. He outlines the history at the time of the dissolution of the USSR and describes how the western leaders were 'acurely aware' of the need to welcome the Russia of Gorbachev and then Yeltsin into the now reforming Europe - as well as welcoming the newly independent Soviet-republics. Yeltsin signed the NATO-Russia Founding Act in 1997 and Putin endorsed it in 1999. Its commitments included building together "a lasting and inclusive peace in the Euro-Atlantic area on the principles of democracy and co-operative security," adding that “Nato and Russia do not consider each other as adversaries.” They also agreed on a several principles, including "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security.” A NATO-Russia Council was created as a forum for the discussion of problem areas.

                      Ricketts arrived in 2003 and found the atmosphere between Russia and the West had 'soured'. His explanation: "The way in which the US and UK steamrollered the UN Security Council over the Iraq War in 2003 soured Moscow’s view of the west." Russia lost interest in the NATO-Russia Council. That sounds a plausible explanation, but in the first place it also coincided with the time at which Yeltsin left office and Putin arrived. It also didn't involve any change in NATO: it was actions in the UN Security Council.

                      Putin then engaged in his 'domestic' war against the Chechen separatists, followed by his support for Georgian pro-Russia separatists, followed by his annexation of Crimea, followed by his support for the Ukrainian pro-Russia separatists, followed by …

                      I would suggest the problem is not NATO at all. The problem is Putin. In spite of the US right blaming Biden for the Russian aggression, the West and NATO have been very restrained.
                      It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                      Comment

                      • Ein Heldenleben
                        Full Member
                        • Apr 2014
                        • 6760

                        Blimey even the Guardian is running articles on the need to increase defence spending and nuclear power. What a difference a week makes.

                        Comment

                        • Ein Heldenleben
                          Full Member
                          • Apr 2014
                          • 6760

                          Originally posted by french frank View Post
                          As far as Russia and NATO are concerned, Prospect Magazine has an article by the UK's former anbassador to NATO, Peter Ricketts. He outlines the history at the time of the dissolution of the USSR and describes how the western leaders were 'acurely aware' of the need to welcome the Russia of Gorbachev and then Yeltsin into the now reforming Europe - as well as welcoming the newly independent Soviet-republics. Yeltsin signed the NATO-Russia Founding Act in 1997 and Putin endorsed it in 1999. Its commitments included building together "a lasting and inclusive peace in the Euro-Atlantic area on the principles of democracy and co-operative security," adding that “Nato and Russia do not consider each other as adversaries.” They also agreed on a several principles, including "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security.” A NATO-Russia Council was created as a forum for the discussion of problem areas.

                          Ricketts arrived in 2003 and found the atmosphere between Russia and the West had 'soured'. His explanation: "The way in which the US and UK steamrollered the UN Security Council over the Iraq War in 2003 soured Moscow’s view of the west." Russia lost interest in the NATO-Russia Council. That sounds a plausible explanation, but in the first place it also coincided with the time at which Yeltsin left office and Putin arrived. It also didn't involve any change in NATO: it was actions in the UN Security Council.

                          Putin then engaged in his 'domestic' war against the Chechen separatists, followed by his support for Georgian pro-Russia separatists, followed by his annexation of Crimea, followed by his support for the Ukrainian pro-Russia separatists, followed by …

                          I would suggest the problem is not NATO at all. The problem is Putin. In spite of the US right blaming Biden for the Russian aggression, the West and NATO have been very restrained.
                          Agreed but wasn’t the NATO -Russia council as much use as the UN ? I think Russia was invading defenceless countries long before the West unseated that other dictator Hussein . The problem was we didn’t have any appreciation of Iraq’s history , its unique position in the Middle East and the hornet’s nest we were stirring up. (Sounds familiar Mr Putin? )

                          Comment

                          • french frank
                            Administrator/Moderator
                            • Feb 2007
                            • 30254

                            Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
                            Agreed but wasn’t the NATO -Russia council as much use as the UN ? I think Russia was invading defenceless countries long before the West unseated that other dictator Hussein . The problem was we didn’t have any appreciation of Iraq’s history , its unique position in the Middle East and the hornet’s nest we were stirring up. (Sounds familiar Mr Putin? )
                            Yes, and on Iraq etc, the (other) problem I have with the Stop the War Coalition is the claim that 'We were right about Iraq, we were right about Afghanistan, we were right about Libya'. No proof of that: just because Solution A was an abject failure doesn't mean that Solution B would have succeeded.

                            The point is, when you have fighting happening on the ground after one country attacked another, it doesn't do to be 'even-handed'. It reeks of Trump's 'There are good people on both sides' because he didn't want to condemn one side.
                            It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                            Comment

                            • Frances_iom
                              Full Member
                              • Mar 2007
                              • 2411

                              Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
                              Blimey even the Guardian is running articles on the need to increase defence spending and nuclear power. ...
                              too late - the rot set in years ago with Thatcher when privatisation of the energy supply + distribution would guarantee that short term profits would prevent any long term thought re safety and future needs - likewise research + development were seen as too costly overheads thus we cannot now even design our own nuclear stations let alone make any of the key components.

                              Comment

                              • eighthobstruction
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 6432

                                .....I wonder what the truth and significance of this....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poXV-cwbQDA

                                ....Ukr cannot have any air power - or those massed "stalled" (4 deep like a traffic jam) vehicles outside Kyiv would have been destroyed....
                                bong ching

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