Ukraine

[Historian]

Weinberger got a Knighthood?

Honorary Knight Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire in 1988 (highest award in that order). As he was not a British citizen he could not call himself 'Sir Casper'.

Sadly rfg I agree that Trump Part One is looking much better, comparatively, than the current incarnation.

[richardfinegold]

Fwiw I’m unable to cut and paste the links but the UK and Germany appear to have provided 14B and 17B Euros respectively in direct aid to Ukraine in the last 3 yrs; the US roughly 160 billion. As we know these amounts have kept Ukraine afloat at a terrible human cost. If the EU were to triple their contribution and the US were to retain 25% of present support even that looks inadequate. Given present political realities it’s hard to see more support than that being offered .

The only viable solution I see is for the EU to put in place thousands of peacekeepers as human shields, and then hope that all participants in NATO would honor their commitments if they are attacked. Perhaps that would be a future US Administration

[french frank]

Fwiw I’m unable to cut and paste the links but the UK and Germany appear to have provided 14B and 17B Euros respectively in direct aid to Ukraine in the last 3 yrs; the US roughly 160 billion.

Not clear what is being compared here. These are the BBC Verify figures placed in context. The US may claim to be the biggest single donor but is also the biggest state.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o

[kernelbogey]

Not clear what is being compared here. These are the BBC Verify figures placed in context. The US may claim to be the biggest single donor but is also the biggest state.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o

Also, as I understand it, the money went to US arms manufacturers (and some of it was munitions taken out of storage).

[Historian]

Also, as I understand it, the money went to US arms manufacturers (and some of it was munitions taken out of storage).

Some of the money went to US arms manufacturers, but the same would be true of UK/European military assistance. Again, some of the European munitions would also be taken out of storage.

Unlike the UK/ Europe, the US has large stockpiles of partially-outdated equipment which is still useful to Ukraine. It is not just a matter of counting up the dollars/euros (as I am sure you realise). European militaries (including the UK) do not have the range of capabilities possessed by the US. Just offloading old equipment can be counter-productive in terms of complicating logistics and maintenance for example. The US equipment tends to be of a higher specification than some of the European donations.

[Dave2002]

Fwiw I’m unable to cut and paste the links but the UK and Germany appear to have provided 14B and 17B Euros respectively in direct aid to Ukraine in the last 3 yrs; the US roughly 160 billion. As we know these amounts have kept Ukraine afloat at a terrible human cost. If the EU were to triple their contribution and the US were to retain 25% of present support even that looks inadequate. Given present political realities it’s hard to see more support than that being offered .

The only viable solution I see is for the EU to put in place thousands of peacekeepers as human shields, and then hope that all participants in NATO would honor their commitments if they are attacked. Perhaps that would be a future US Administration

I really don't know the "correct" expenditure for each country involved. There are many "sources" but maybe most of them are incorrect. See msgs 2028 and 2029 above.

It may be that the US has really provided more per US capita than other countries, but I don't know. The view which seems to be promoted here is that the UK and EU commitments are overall comparable to that of the US - but it is really hard to know what the "correct" data is. I would agree that the UK and EU should increase the proportional spending, but there is such a lot of misinformation [may not be deliberate] on most sides that it's very hard to get a handle on it.

An added factor is whether assistance is given with funding - or direct. The issue of "off loading" older military equipment and ammunition has been raised, but there may be other forms of assistance. Trying to compare all the components and put monetary value on them might actually be very difficult. Countries which may want to send in older equipment may still want to pay to have their own stocks replenished - as indeed would the US. It may also be expedient for some countries to pay the US government and US firms to supply goods and services, as that may logistically be much quicker, though there may also be European countries which are or coud be geared up for much more rapid delivery. Ukraine itself appears to have been remarkably quick and able in regard to some aspects of the efforts which have been required.

[oddoneout]

Also, as I understand it, the money went to US arms manufacturers (and some of it was munitions taken out of storage).

Some interesting points here - and sadly a somewhat prescient concern voiced about continuation of aid to Ukraine in the event of a Trump second term.

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/how-america-s-aid-to-ukraine-actually-works

A comment under another article I read(possibly FT) made the point that arms and equipment due to be decommissioned due to age(but still serviceable) is included in what is sent to Ukraine which means that costs of storage and decommission are no longer incurred on it.

[eighthobstruction]

Fwiw I’m unable to cut and paste the links but the UK and Germany appear to have provided 14B and 17B Euros respectively in direct aid to Ukraine in the last 3 yrs; the US roughly 160 billion. As we know these amounts have kept Ukraine afloat at a terrible human cost. If the EU were to triple their contribution and the US were to retain 25% of present support even that looks inadequate. Given present political realities it’s hard to see more support than that being offered .

The only viable solution I see is for the EU to put in place thousands of peacekeepers as human shields, and then hope that all participants in NATO would honor their commitments if they are attacked. Perhaps that would be a future US Administration

Here are some good statistics and ideas within this article....if the link is available across the pond...https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng...sual-explainer

[eighthobstruction]

....I heard via Times Radio : that minimum 100k soldiers might be required to keep a peace line in Ukraine - should a peace agreement be signed .....approx 3 x 30k (30k imn field , 30k readying to go +training, 30k resting after being in the field)....https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czep44jn9jyo

[richardfinegold]

Not clear what is being compared here. These are the BBC Verify figures placed in context. The US may claim to be the biggest single donor but is also the biggest state.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o

I am not sure what the point that you are trying to make is. All that I am trying to say is that perhaps if the Europeans can triple their spending and the US contributes about a quarter of previous that perhaps Ukraine can eake out survival.

[french frank]

All that I am trying to say is that perhaps if the Europeans can triple their spending and the US contributes about a quarter of previous that perhaps Ukraine can eake out survival.

All? Triple???

[eighthobstruction]

All? Triple???

yep, weird numbers eh? no matter how often you show approx actual numbers....this last 24hrs - Defense Secretary Hegseth orders U.S. Cyber Command to cease operations against Russia.... last week JAG 3 top officials dismissed....today Trump bans several mainstream Media from Press Corps....A Hollowing Out of entire US Government process....Checks and Balances Disappearing....Podcasters in charge of the FBI....Tulsi Gabbard Trumps Intelligence advisor (seemingly pro Putin)....30 odd people in the cabinet a mixture of Conspiracy Trolls - Billionaires - ex Trump lawyers - favour doers - Money Givers - Right-wing US Redoubters....etc etc....

,,,,I don't usually read Bloomberg as a source, but they have been good on the weekend Euro Summit....Finish PM Stubb has been very good (and very good English) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc6YWZs7vmo

[vinteuil]

A Hollowing Out of entire US Government process....Checks and Balances Disappearing...

... that is what I see

.

[eighthobstruction]

... that is what I see

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUTMswMjXBI&t=65s

[french frank]

"...millions of American hearts swelled with overflowing pride today to watch President Trump put Zelenskyy in his place." [Stephen Miller] (or Trump puts President Zelenskyy &c ...' )

Big boy hits small boy and crowds cheer.

The problem for 'the Europeans' is that many of the states (inside and outside the EU) are tiny and several are comparatively poor.