Ukraine

[Historian]

I must apologise for my recent failure to contribute to this thread. This was because I wanted to see what Trump would actually do. Now we have seen. He may, of course, do something different tomorrow.


There is no real possibility of Trump being removed in the short term by impeachment because this would need a vote of 2/3 of the Senate and this will not happen. If, as may be possible but extremely unlikely, Trump was found to be medically incapable of continuing then the Vice President would take over. I am not sure that JD Vance, someone who effectively knows nothing and came out of nowhere, would be much of an improvement.

Sadly I agree with EH that many Americans, at least Republicans, will agree with Trump: this is one of the reasons why they voted for him. The truth, that much (possibly most) of the billions of dollars that the USA gave to Ukraine has directly benefited the US by either creating or securing jobs in the defence industry. Some of the weapons given were from storage and sending them to Ukraine will actually save money for the US. However, most Americans do not hear the truth, they hear a one-sided version from within their chosen echo chamber.

It is, of course, likely that conversations on similar lines have occurred before, but behind closed doors. Trump is perfectly prepared to perform like this in public, as is Vance (his cheerleader who, let us not forget, changed his coat to become the VP).

Zelensky would, perhaps, have been well-advised to give Trump more of what he wanted to hear. However, for some reason he was unwilling to sacrifice his country merely to appease the great deal-maker.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I must apologise for my recent failure to contribute to this thread. This was because I wanted to see what Trump would actually do. Now we have seen. He may, of course, do something different tomorrow.


There is no real possibility of Trump being removed in the short term by impeachment because this would need a vote of 2/3 of the Senate and this will not happen. If, as may be possible but extremely unlikely, Trump was found to be medically incapable of continuing then the Vice President would take over. I am not sure that JD Vance, someone who effectively knows nothing and came out of nowhere, would be much of an improvement.

Sadly I agree with EH that many Americans, at least Republicans, will agree with Trump: this is one of the reasons why they voted for him. The truth, that much (possibly most) of the billions of dollars that the USA gave to Ukraine has directly benefited the US by either creating or securing jobs in the defence industry. Some of the weapons given were from storage and sending them to Ukraine will actually save money for the US. However, most Americans do not hear the truth, they hear a one-sided version from within their chosen echo chamber.

It is, of course, likely that conversations on similar lines have occurred before, but behind closed doors. Trump is perfectly prepared to perform like this in public, as is Vance (his cheerleader who, let us not forget, changed his coat to become the VP).

Zelensky would, perhaps, have been well-advised to give Trump more of what he wanted to hear. However, for some reason he was unwilling to sacrifice his country merely to appease the great deal-maker.

Excellent but depressing analysis. Starmer did his homework. The playbook is the Godfather . Respect is everything to these guys. Starmer nailed it with the State Visit invite. “When did you invite me to your home for coffee?.”

Of course just like the Godfather the wise guys sow the seeds of their own destruction.

[french frank]

Sadly I agree with EH that many Americans, at least Republicans, will agree with Trump: this is one of the reasons why they voted for him.

It's depressing that they don't see the slogan 'America First' as diminishing the US rather than Making it Great. A conflict between allies and the US's historical enemy and the US has no influence whatsoever and is prepared to just give in. It seems he is indeed, as Frances_iom says, just mentally incapable of processing facts and reality.

[Dave2002]

Great TV - as the Donald observed!

[kernelbogey]

It's depressing that they don't see the slogan 'America First' as diminishing the US rather than Making it Great. A conflict between allies and the US's historical enemy and the US has no influence whatsoever and is prepared to just give in. It seems he is indeed, as Frances_iom says, just mentally incapable of processing facts and reality.

The US is such a massive monoculture that many, perhaps most, voters will have no experience of any other. I believe most have never travelled outside it. That is fertile soil for that 'MAGA' slogan.

[richardfinegold]

I’ve never been more ashamed to be an American. I was hoping initially that the backlash here against Trump would be to Ukraine’s benefit, but it’s just a debacle for them. I hope the Europeans would rally to the Ukraine cause, but I suspect that it will be fine speeches, anti Trump and anti American posturing, and not much else. They’re screwed

[kernelbogey]

... the backlash here against Trump ....

Hoping to read more in the press this weekend about what that amounts to.

[eighthobstruction]

I’ve never been more ashamed to be an American. I was hoping initially that the backlash here against Trump would be to Ukraine’s benefit, but it’s just a debacle for them. I hope the Europeans would rally to the Ukraine cause, but I suspect that it will be fine speeches, anti Trump and anti American posturing, and not much else. They’re screwed

....No, it hasn't been just fine speeches, it won't be just fine speeches....it won't be perfect - because much of it relies on money (Europe 132 billion $, USA 120 billion dollars, most of which was spent in USA)....The Polish president went to Washington this week, was kept waiting for hours then only got 10minutes with Trump. The EU’s foreign policy chief Kaja Kallas did not meet U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio during her scheduled visit to Washington “due to scheduling issues." What was the "not much else" that was available....Euro leaders have been very busy on the issue. USA Vice Presidents don't usually talk in the way Vance has done recently. Anyway I'll say no more that couldn't possibily said with clarity in this short form - and luckily I don't have to do it while being a Ukrainian speaking man with all the world watching.... good wishes to you rfg....

Around 6.8 million refugees from Ukraine are recorded globally, and an additional 3.7 million are displaced within the country. Russia currently hosts the highest number of Ukrainian refugees (1.2 million), followed by Germany (1.2 million) and Poland (993,000). Around 254,000 refugees are in the UK.

[Dave2002]

Around 6.8 million refugees from Ukraine are recorded globally, and an additional 3.7 million are displaced within the country. Russia currently hosts the highest number of Ukrainian refugees (1.2 million), followed by Germany (1.2 million) and Poland (993,000). Around 254,000 refugees are in the UK.

Very interesting this - if your data is correct.

What does "Russia currently hosts the highest number of Ukrainian refugees" actually mean? Are those Russian speaking Ukrainians [which I think is most of them] who went to Russia voluntarily?

[eighthobstruction]

Very interesting this - if your data is correct.

What does "Russia currently hosts the highest number of Ukrainian refugees" actually mean? Are those Russian speaking Ukrainians [which I think is most of them] who went to Russia voluntarily?

....North Eastern Ukrainians in War Region.....some pro- Russian....some pro Govt, caught in conflict and forceably retained in Russia....but i UN language they are all "forced transfers to enemy soil"....

[Bella Kemp]

It would have helped if Mr Zelensky had been more diplomatic - and at least acknowledged that there will have to be some sort of negotiation with Putin to end the war. Now it seems as if things will simply grind on without any foreseeable end or - unimaginable until yesterday - Russia will win and take Kiev. I always used to think that there might be some grown-ups working behind Trump somewhere to clear up his baby mess, but now I'm not so sure.

[Nick Armstrong]

Deeply shocking and worrying. 'Performative bullying' as one tv presenter had it.

And an insanely dumb strategy to use against the person on the planet who’s best known for standing up to a bully

[Dave2002]

It would have helped if Mr Zelensky had been more diplomatic - and at least acknowledged that there will have to be some sort of negotiation with Putin to end the war. Now it seems as if things will simply grind on without any foreseeable end or - unimaginable until yesterday - Russia will win and take Kiev. I always used to think that there might be some grown-ups working behind Trump somewhere to clear up his baby mess, but now I'm not so sure.

Completely disagree, but that's just my view today.

A week - as they say - is a long time in politics. We'll see.

[Dave2002]

....North Eastern Ukrainians in War Region.....some pro- Russian....some pro Govt, caught in conflict and forceably retained in Russia....but i UN language they are all "forced transfers to enemy soil"....

So not "voluntary" refugees then?
They didn't have anywhere else "safe" to go.

[Petrushka]

I’ve never been more ashamed to be an American. I was hoping initially that the backlash here against Trump would be to Ukraine’s benefit, but it’s just a debacle for them. I hope the Europeans would rally to the Ukraine cause, but I suspect that it will be fine speeches, anti Trump and anti American posturing, and not much else. They’re screwed

After yesterday's disgusting spectacle, Europe can be under no illusions that America is now a failed state and can no longer to be relied on. The European Powers must now gradually detach themselves from the US military and intelligence complex and forge ahead alone, something that should have been done years ago.

Afraid we now have to look upon the US as a hostile nation and every country in Europe must urgently be put on to a war economy.