Ukraine

[Dave2002]

Norway too...at least the last time I went a couple of years ago...still has restrictions Supermarkets now are able to sell low-alcohol drinks (e.g. beer, lager, etc) but spirits are still under state control. If you can afford them!

Sweden has had a policy of encouraging wine drinking. Some may not think that's a good idea, but the concept is that drinking wine causes fewer medical and social problems than drinking spirits or even home made hooch. Apparently this was considered a successful policy, and good quality wines were available from state stores. Many people there can afford these - relative to income levels costs were probably not a major issue. Low alcohol (3% or less) were available in suspermarkets fairly cheaply.

[Frances_iom]

... But I think he was utterly bonkers on Skripal (can't now remember whether it was British intelligence or Israel that poisoned them, but it was to discredit Putin). ...

A regular poster on this board was another one who pushed this line - I think still doesn't accept the UK evidence.

[RichardB]

A regular poster on this board was another one who pushed this line - I think still doesn't accept the UK evidence.

Putin is an unscrupulous and brutal individual. Such a person ordered the Skripal poisoning. That doesn't necessarily mean they are one and the same. And the very carefully phrased description (by Theresa May and in all other official Western statements) of the nerve agent used as "of a type developed by Russia" suggests that conclusive evidence is actually lacking. I think we ought to be concerned with the truth of what actually happened and who initiated it, and if there's any doubt make clear that this is the case, however convenient and plausible it is to pin the blame on Putin. However that may be, Murray's response to the invasion of Ukraine seems to me to contain several thought-provoking points, particularly as concerns how the situation might eventually play out.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Putin is an unscrupulous and brutal individual. Such a person ordered the Skripal poisoning. That doesn't necessarily mean they are one and the same. And the very carefully phrased description (by Theresa May and in all other official Western statements) of the nerve agent used as "of a type developed by Russia" suggests that conclusive evidence is actually lacking. I think we ought to be concerned with the truth of what actually happened and who initiated it, and if there's any doubt make clear that this is the case, however convenient and plausible it is to pin the blame on Putin. However that may be, Murray's response to the invasion of Ukraine seems to me to contain several thought-provoking points, particularly as concerns how the situation might eventually play out.

We must be careful to avoid analogies with the 1930’s and comparisons between Hitler and Putin partly because it rankles with some Russians that , in their view , the West has never really acknowledged the fact that they bore the brunt of defeating Hitler. That also explains why , to our astonishment Stalin is still a hero to many there. However one big difference between then and now is the relative lack of appeasers or “useful idiots “ trying to defend Russia’s actions in the West . It is possible to construct such an argument but it seems to be finding no traction at all on mainstream media. I am quite surprised at that.
For the benefit of doubt although it’s possible to construct such an argument I don’t agree with it. I don’t believe for one single second that the West poses a threat to Putin’s Russia except by showing to ordinary Russians how much more attractive life is in the West - some thing rich Russians realised long ago by buying up large portions of it. The problem , as always, is in convincing the paranoid that you don’t pose a threat .

[gurnemanz]

Putin is an unscrupulous and brutal individual. Such a person ordered the Skripal poisoning. .

Skripal survived. The Litvinenko assassins succeeded despite their laughable incompetence, as portrayed with dark hilarity in Lucy Prebble's play, A Very Expensive Poison at the Old Vic. I well remember Reece Shearsmith as Putin, appearing spookily lit from somewhere in the gods.

[gurnemanz]

Interesting unscheduled discussion just now on R4. A contributor pointed out the irony that in insisting Ukraine is part of Russsia, he actually strengthens the will of the Ukrainians not to be such. A further illustration of the cock-up theory whereby fanatics achieve the opposite of their aim.

[Frances_iom]

Putin is an unscrupulous and brutal individual. Such a person ordered the Skripal poisoning. That doesn't necessarily mean they are one and the same. ....

since the two special service officers were outed further search of Russian visitors to EU has strongly suggested they were the pair that caused an explosion in a store of arms destined for anti-Assad forces in Syria - plausible denial can only stretch so far.

[richardfinegold]

Interesting unscheduled discussion just now on R4. A contributor pointed out the irony that in insisting Ukraine is part of Russsia, he actually strengthens the will of the Ukrainians not to be such. A further illustration of the cock-up theory whereby fanatics achieve the opposite of their aim.

The resistance in Kharkiv is strong, even though the population is majority Russian speaking

[Flay]

Gergiev's gone

https://www.rte.ie/entertainment/2022/0301/1283669-russian-conductor-valery-gergiev-sacked-in-munich/

[oddoneout]

Interesting unscheduled discussion just now on R4. A contributor pointed out the irony that in insisting Ukraine is part of Russsia, he actually strengthens the will of the Ukrainians not to be such. A further illustration of the cock-up theory whereby fanatics achieve the opposite of their aim.

Does it not depend to some extent which is the more important bit for Putin - the physical land mass that is Ukraine or the nation/country(ie land and people) that is Ukraine, ie what his aim actually is, as to whether he risks achieving the opposite? If the former then the opinion of the people is irrelevant (and a mass exodus out of the country is a positive) except insofar as objectors need subduing. I'm not sure he's that fussed by the populace not liking him so long as he continues to have the means to deal with it?

[Serial_Apologist]

Does it not depend to some extent which is the more important bit for Putin - the physical land mass that is Ukraine or the nation/country(ie land and people) that is Ukraine, ie what his aim actually is, as to whether he risks achieving the opposite? If the former then the opinion of the people is irrelevant (and a mass exodus out of the country is a positive) except insofar as objectors need subduing. I'm not sure he's that fussed by the populace not liking him so long as he continues to have the means to deal with it?

Probably right. And the additional irony is that many Ukrainians, Russian or Ukrainian-speaking, have regarded ordinary Russian people as their brothers and sisters; and vice-versa.

[french frank]

Does it not depend to some extent which is the more important bit for Putin - the physical land mass that is Ukraine or the nation/country(ie land and people) that is Ukraine, ie what his aim actually is, as to whether he risks achieving the opposite? If the former then the opinion of the people is irrelevant (and a mass exodus out of the country is a positive) except insofar as objectors need subduing. I'm not sure he's that fussed by the populace not liking him so long as he continues to have the means to deal with it?

The latest Russian demands suggest that it's the status of the country that's at issue. It must be 'demilitarised' and declared a neutral zone. Crimea must be recognised as Russian. That presumably is directed at the international community, not the Ukrainian government or people.

[teamsaint]

Does it not depend to some extent which is the more important bit for Putin - the physical land mass that is Ukraine or the nation/country(ie land and people) that is Ukraine, ie what his aim actually is, as to whether he risks achieving the opposite? If the former then the opinion of the people is irrelevant (and a mass exodus out of the country is a positive) except insofar as objectors need subduing. I'm not sure he's that fussed by the populace not liking him so long as he continues to have the means to deal with it?

Well this is an important point. There seems to have been little discussion in our press about what Putin's actual endgame is, and how, assuming that he gains a measure of control, he intends to create a stable situation there.

[RichardB]

Gergiev's gone

Without being in any way an apologist for Gergiev, I wonder whether a dismissal for not saying anything doesn't set a dangerous precedent.

[Frances_iom]

... Crimea must be recognised as Russian. ..

it wouldn't, of course, be because there is a large + important Russian naval base there, the garrison town of the 'little green men' - the lease on which is now highly unlikely to be renewed if Ukraine continues as an independent nation.