Is this progress?

[oddoneout]

The more I read about bitcoin et al the more I wonder about why digital (it seems more like imaginary to me I must admit) finance is loudly proclaimed as the way forward and highly desirable. I was aware of the energy issues which are the subject of much adverse comment, but the figures mentioned in this article in this are, to me, pretty horrifying.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/feb/18/bitcoin-miners-revive-fossil-fuel-plant-co2-emissions-soared

Even if such figures are inflated/based on incorrect assumptions as some claim, it still to me raises the question about priorities for resources and smacks of cart before the horse.
Climate emergency anyone?

[AuntDaisy]

Yes, what a waste of resources.
Talking of which, Today had a piece on Non-Fungible Tokens (NFT) and Digital Art this morning (starting ~44:00 on SOUNDS).
I have no idea what non-fungible means (can anyone decline "to funge"?), but, like bitcoin, NFT also seems to use similar massive amounts of computing / block chain via Ethereum (whatever that is). The annoying rap (?) song that threaded through the piece mentioned Ponzi schemes.

[french frank]

(can anyone decline "to funge"?)

From fungor, fungi, functus - to work (hence function). How this came to mean, in the 17th c, something which was replaceable by an identical item (or 'stand in place of') I don't know. In that sense a 17th c. painting would be a non-fungible though NFTs only seem to apply to electronically produced items which - I would have thought - could be reproduced ad infinitum. The 'token' seems to be the certificate of authenticity of the non-fungible item.

As for the bitcoin mining, it seems ironic that these complex computers rely on such old fashioned technology as coal-fired power stations.

[oddoneout]

There's quite a lot on here to try and get to grips with https://ethereum.org/en/nft/
Trouble is, when I read through it I find myself thinking about all the assurances that have been given over the years about how secure/safe any given new idea is and how often, and how catastrophically in some cases, that has proved not to be the case. I don't see how anyone can state that anything to do with IT and data processing is completely secure and will never fail; as people get better at making it secure so other people get better at unpicking the security. Other things that tend to go through my mind when reading about what seems over-excited activity in trading and the breathless security promises are South Sea Bubble, Tulipmania, human error and increasingly erratic forces of nature.

[Serial_Apologist]

There's quite a lot on here to try and get to grips with https://ethereum.org/en/nft/
Trouble is, when I read through it I find myself thinking about all the assurances that have been given over the years about how secure/safe any given new idea is and how often, and how catastrophically in some cases, that has proved not to be the case. I don't see how anyone can state that anything to do with IT and data processing is completely secure and will never fail; as people get better at making it secure so other people get better at unpicking the security. Other things that tend to go through my mind when reading about what seems over-excited activity in trading and the breathless security promises are South Sea Bubble, Tulipmania, human error and increasingly erratic forces of nature.

Those forces of nature are only getting their own back on human error.

[RichardB]

For me one of the most beautiful things about music in the present age is that it's no longer distorted by the economics of scarcity that makes the visual art world so warped and money-oriented; and the NFT concept exists only in order once more to create a completely artificial scarcity by pretending that digital artworks can be unique and uniquely owned. What a scam! It's like me saying "only one copy of my new CD is genuine and it's owned by Serial_Apologist who has the unique blockchain code to prove it. All the other copies are worthless but his is worth a hundred grand." So, in answer to the OP: no, it isn't progress. Progress would be getting beyond the idea that "owning" artworks is only for a wealthy elite.

[Serial_Apologist]

For me one of the most beautiful things about music in the present age is that it's no longer distorted by the economics of scarcity that makes the visual art world so warped and money-oriented; and the NFT concept exists only in order once more to create a completely artificial scarcity by pretending that digital artworks can be unique and uniquely owned. What a scam! It's like me saying "only one copy of my new CD is genuine and it's owned by Serial_Apologist who has the unique blockchain code to prove it. All the other copies are worthless but his is worth a hundred grand." So, in answer to the OP: no, it isn't progress. Progress would be getting beyond the idea that "owning" artworks is only for a wealthy elite.

Walter Benjamin would have had something to say about this, I'm sure.

[richardfinegold]

For me one of the most beautiful things about music in the present age is that it's no longer distorted by the economics of scarcity that makes the visual art world so warped and money-oriented; and the NFT concept exists only in order once more to create a completely artificial scarcity by pretending that digital artworks can be unique and uniquely owned. What a scam! It's like me saying "only one copy of my new CD is genuine and it's owned by Serial_Apologist who has the unique blockchain code to prove it. All the other copies are worthless but his is worth a hundred grand." So, in answer to the OP: no, it isn't progress. Progress would be getting beyond the idea that "owning" artworks is only for a wealthy elite.

Double Thumbs Up..
I can’t really get my head around Cryptocurrency and its derivative, NFT. Otoh, I see where it comes from. Essentially all paper money is a convention where we all agree to pretend that it has a worth equal to a certain precious metal. The Truckers Strike in Canada is partially being broken by denying the protesters access to the monetary system, and crypto is being used as a way to allow them to continue their livelihood. I have no sympathy with the truckers, but this seems to be a Pandora box

[oddoneout]

Double Thumbs Up..
I can’t really get my head around Cryptocurrency and its derivative, NFT. Otoh, I see where it comes from. Essentially all paper money is a convention where we all agree to pretend that it has a worth equal to a certain precious metal. The Truckers Strike in Canada is partially being broken by denying the protesters access to the monetary system, and crypto is being used as a way to allow them to continue their livelihood. I have no sympathy with the truckers, but this seems to be a Pandora box

But the crypto is being blocked as well? https://bitcoinist.com/canada-chokes-crypto-supply/
An unintentional learning exercise in how to deal with the new way of doing things, each side running around finding ways round the actions of the other. In the meantime the original cause of the protest seems to be getting somewhat buried, and is morphing into other grievances and counter-protests.

[Ein Heldenleben]

For me one of the most beautiful things about music in the present age is that it's no longer distorted by the economics of scarcity that makes the visual art world so warped and money-oriented; and the NFT concept exists only in order once more to create a completely artificial scarcity by pretending that digital artworks can be unique and uniquely owned. What a scam! It's like me saying "only one copy of my new CD is genuine and it's owned by Serial_Apologist who has the unique blockchain code to prove it. All the other copies are worthless but his is worth a hundred grand." So, in answer to the OP: no, it isn't progress. Progress would be getting beyond the idea that "owning" artworks is only for a wealthy elite.

Don’t give them any ideas! Yes music and book publishing are more “democratic” than the single object plastic arts but it’s just as full of cartels and market abuse. Look at the monopolistic way the streamers and a tiny number of record companies have carved up the revenue between them. No wonder unique talent (over a certain age) is selling out.

[RichardB]

Don’t give them any ideas! Yes music and book publishing are more “democratic” than the single object plastic arts but it’s just as full of cartels and market abuse.

Indeed. As you say, at one end of the "market" you have older artists selling out; at the other end you have the growth of more equitable ways to distribute digital recordings like Bandcamp.

[Dave2002]

The more I read about bitcoin et al the more I wonder about why digital (it seems more like imaginary to me I must admit) finance is loudly proclaimed as the way forward and highly desirable. I was aware of the energy issues which are the subject of much adverse comment, but the figures mentioned in this article in this are, to me, pretty horrifying.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/feb/18/bitcoin-miners-revive-fossil-fuel-plant-co2-emissions-soared

Even if such figures are inflated/based on incorrect assumptions as some claim, it still to me raises the question about priorities for resources and smacks of cart before the horse.
Climate emergency anyone?

Absolute madness. I believe China may have actually made mining digital currency illegal - but I'm not holding my breath to see what happens.


States like Kosovo, which is very poor, should perhaps be encouraged to do other things which might be useful, rather than burning up supplies of low grade fuels such as lignite, and increasing the greenhouse emissions.

The American example mentioned in post 1 is a disgrace, as are a few other examples in that supposedly civilised country.

If computers are to be used for massive calculations, then those should be for problems such as drug development, disease management etc., not for extremely dubious efforts to manipulate some forms of "currency".

From another Guardian article from Jan 16 this year:

The latest calculation from Cambridge University’s bitcoin electricity consumption index suggests that global bitcoin mining consumes 125.96 terawatt hours a year of electricity, putting its consumption above Norway (122.2 TWh), Argentina (121 TWh), the Netherlands (108.8 TWh) and the United Arab Emirates (113.20 TWh).

Given that countries such as Norway generate a lot of electricity by hydro electric generators, bit coin miners really should be taken down for their offsetting of serious attempts to minimise environmental damage.