To mask or not to mask

[french frank]

the result wasn't so much a vote for FPTP as a vote against the deliberately engineered no better alternative - which of course was the intention. Better the devil you know from the electorate's point of view in many cases I think.

I agree with the last sentence - but that would have applied even if they'd been offered a genuine proportional system. The favoured STV would have attracted exactly the same criticisms from the No campaign - gives two votes to the BNP, costs money that could be spent on the NHS ("Vote No or the baby dies"), the person who came second can win etc.

As for AV being no better than FPTP, I don't know of any organisation concerned with voting reform - including the Electoral Reform Society - that would have agreed with that. A preferential system, even if not strictly proportional, was better than FPTP.

As for mask-wearing I'm not sure that it's AS common as when it was mandatory (unsurprising), but it is still common. And people are also swerving to avoid passing too close to others e.g. on the pavement.

[teamsaint]

I share this pessimism, overall. It’s not that the stats are bad, it’s that people are selfish. It’s not asking much to mask up in high risk situations like tube trains and indoor gatherings. And it’s not asking much to get jabbed. Twice. We’re in a better place then we were 6 months ago, yet people behave as if overnight Covid has gone. May providence help them in the coming winter of fuel and food shortages backed by inflation and unemployment.

Finger pointing at one particular group, who are making an entirely legitimate choice is very unhelpful when there are endless examples of people and groups who require serious NHS intervention because of lifestyle choices. We are , for example, one of the most overweight countries in Europe, and have as epidemic of drink related health issue.
Division among the people, created by government and voiced by the media, is a weapon used against us all.
The vaccines have been offered as widely as possible. And it should be remembered that they do have , for some people, negative health impacts, the extent of which is not yet fully understood.

[french frank]

Finger pointing at one particular group, who are making an entirely legitimate choice is very unhelpful

Depends on how you are using the word 'legitimate'. If you mean 'legal', yes, no one is argung that people are not allowed to make this choice. If you mean 'Sanctioned by the laws of reasoning; logically admissible or inferable' or ' In weakened sense: valid or acceptable; justifiable, reasonable' (OED current definitions), it may or may not be true. In some cases I suspect it is simply a 'horror'/fear of having a needle stuck in one's arm and injected with something one doesn't understand. But it may also be a 'Can't be bothered' or 'Why should I?' attitude which is less forgiveable.

[Bryn]

Finger pointing at one particular group, who are making an entirely legitimate choice is very unhelpful when there are endless examples of people and groups who require serious NHS intervention because of lifestyle choices. We are , for example, one of the most overweight countries in Europe, and have as epidemic of drink related health issue.
Division among the people, created by government and voiced by the media, is a weapon used against us all.
The vaccines have been offered as widely as possible. And it should be remembered that they do have , for some people, negative health impacts, the extent of which is not yet fully understood.

In response to that, I would simply offer "two wrongs don't make a right". The problems of obesity, legal addictive drug (ethanol) consumption et al do not excuse those who can safely be vaccinated refusing to be so and thus exposing others to a potentially fatal pandemic disease.

A further supply of FFP2 NR masks (20 for £9.49 including delivery) has just been delivered here.

[Prommer]

A further supply of FFP2 NR masks (20 for £9.49 including delivery) has just been delivered here.

Impressive tooling up. How often is the air you breathe being changed? And are you getting enough Vitamin D?

[teamsaint]

In response to that, I would simply offer "two wrongs don't make a right". The problems of obesity, legal addictive drug (ethanol) consumption et al do not excuse those who can safely be vaccinated refusing to be so and thus exposing others to a potentially fatal pandemic disease.

A further supply of FFP2 NR masks (20 for £9.49 including delivery) has just been delivered here.

The jury is very much out how far the vaccinated are can be infected and transmit the virus, but there is little doubt that it is to a very significant degree.

No, two wrongs don't make a right. But we allow people to make their own choices in other areas, with consequent results for themselves and others,( esp in terms of pressure on the health service which is the argument often used) and I see no good reason to put aside that precedent here.

[kernelbogey]

The jury is very much out how far the vaccinated are can be infected and transmit the virus, but there is little doubt that it is to a very significant degree.

No, two wrongs don't make a right. But we allow people to make their own choices in other areas, with consequent results for themselves and others,( esp in terms of pressure on the health service which is the argument often used) and I see no good reason to put aside that precedent here.

Equally those of us in the other camp can make the choice to say to our unvaccinated friend 'Sorry, no, I won't meet you for coffee indoors, as you have chosen not to be vaccinated, but I'm willing to go for a walk with you'.

[french frank]

The jury is very much out how far the vaccinated are can be infected and transmit the virus, but there is little doubt that it is to a very significant degree.

So they should wear a mask when mixing with others?

[teamsaint]

Equally those of us in the other camp can make the choice to say to our unvaccinated friend 'Sorry, no, I won't meet you for coffee indoors, as you have chosen not to be vaccinated, but I'm happy to go for a walk with you'.

I'm not really sure what your point is, KB ? I'm sure you know that I would agree with that.

I don't think I am in a camp really.

Just trying to see a sensible way through all of this, taking into account all of the many factors involved in decision making, in a world where good unbiased information is not always easy to find.

.

[teamsaint]

So they should wear a mask when mixing with others?

I would say to the same extent that unvaccinated people should.

[french frank]

I would say to the same extent that unvaccinated people should.

I find that a bit of a cop-out if you don't even suggest how large an 'extent' that should be. It might simply amount to neither being obliged to; and end of. Is it always impossible to pronounce an opinion on what others ought to do in any given situation? Even couched in such terms as "it's my opinion that"?

[teamsaint]

I find that a bit of a cop-out if you don't even suggest how large an 'extent' that should be. It might simply amount to neither being obliged to; and end of. Is it always impossible to pronounce an opinion on what others ought to do in any given situation? Even couched in such terms as "it's my opinion that"?

It is a cop out !! It was meant to be.

I think we should get used to not wearing masks as soon as possible but I do understand that in certain situations people are going to be very nervous for some time, and I think that should be respected, for now. I'm not sure in the value of us discussing nuances around that though.

[teamsaint]

Equally those of us in the other camp can make the choice to say to our unvaccinated friend 'Sorry, no, I won't meet you for coffee indoors, as you have chosen not to be vaccinated, but I'm willing to go for a walk with you'.

Sorry KB, just to make a separate point, the only camp I really feel I am in, as anybody on these threads must know, is the anti Vaccine Passport camp. There is no evidence of a public health benefit. Two parliamentary reports also found no justification for them. And I think they are in any case a very dangerous path to go down, as a society.

[french frank]

It is a cop out !! It was meant to be.

Otherwise known as 'laissez-faire'. Acceptable as policy in some contexts, unacceptable in others?

I think we should get used to not wearing masks as soon as possible but I do understand that in certain situations people are going to be very nervous for some time, and I think that should be respected, for now.

Whereas I feel we should not 'get used to not wearing masks' until the spread of the virus is a lot lower than it is; and until we can see the effects of the loosening of restrictions. But I'm sure that is just an honest difference of opinion.

[teamsaint]

Otherwise known as 'laissez-faire'. Acceptable as policy in some contexts, unacceptable in others?



Whereas I feel we should not 'get used to not wearing masks' until the spread of the virus is a lot lower than it is; and until we can see the effects of the loosening of restrictions. But I'm sure that is just an honest difference of opinion.

We are all going to have different views on when certain things are safe, when the virus is at acceptable levels. I'd add to your comments that we need better info on how far the vaccinated are suffering serious disease, since public policy is focused on vaccination.

Re masks, I think that , for now, people should accept mandates.