To mask or not to mask

[Prommer]

I don't understand why people like Marvin are complaining. They've got what they want and can legally go maskless. Why should it matter to them that others continue to wear masks?

Well, yes. Agreed. But I think the moaning and remoaning on here comes more from those who are cross about this, and shocked that night has followed day.

[french frank]

Well, yes. But I think the moaning and remaining on here comes more from those who are cross about the masklessness.

There is a logic to that, in that the maskless are more likely to spread the virus. No?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I don't understand why people like Marvin are complaining. They've got what they want and can legally go maskless. Why should it matter to them that others continue to wear masks?

Well, erm… yes, but I can understand that they may feel ‘got at’ by the mass of protest here. The government’s mixed messages have been a major factor in the confused chaos.

[Prommer]

I think that some have higher vulnerabilities than others (and it is legitimate for them to wish for as much protection as possible) and those who are not technically so, but have anyway a lower risk appetite - for whatever reason.

Waiting for anyone to tell you that it IS 'safe' is a fool's errand, of course, and at some point, nearly everyone would acknowledge we can and should revert to normal, including not wearing masks.

There is a minority of people who now think they will wear them forever, as many Japanese among others have done in certain contexts (including at concerts in London stretching back years) but that will indeed be a minority. This need not detain us here, other than to note that they will be wearing a mask to protect themselves in such circumstances, not other people - as those around them will have abandoned theirs. So this is perhaps a moral crutch which will fall away in due course.

The question then becomes what about the meantime? Between now and the 'end' of the pandemic?

Quite apart from the issue of the fact we are still waiting for the 'end' of the 'flu, aka Waiting for Godot, I think it is perfectly reasonable for each person to judge within the law, and within the context in which they find themselves. Just don't imagine that others will necessarily fall in with your notions.

And so try, if possible, not to judge others so harshly for something that, by degrees, you may well find yourself doing in the coming months or years. That is, not wearing a mask. After all, no one is ever going to expect to be able to demand that you not wear a mask, are they?

[marvin]

Well said.

[Bryn]

Well said.

The concept of the Judas lamb occurs to me when I read your responses. I regard your stance as potentially lethal to others, and possibly yourself, in effect. If you feel your outlook is being 'got at', that is the apposite interpretation. "If you don't hit it , it won't fall". I fear that musicians I hold in the highest regard for their musicianship, such as Evan Parker, fall into the same category of the dangerously misinformed attempting to lead others to their doom.

[marvin]

I've never said 'got at'. Al I've ever said is that I don't wear a mask currently with my life style.

[oddoneout]

I think that some have higher vulnerabilities than others (and it is legitimate for them to wish for as much protection as possible) and those who are not technically so, but have anyway a lower risk appetite - for whatever reason.

Waiting for anyone to tell you that it IS 'safe' is a fool's errand, of course, and at some point, nearly everyone would acknowledge we can and should revert to normal, including not wearing masks.

There is a minority of people who now think they will wear them forever, as many Japanese among others have done in certain contexts (including at concerts in London stretching back years) but that will indeed be a minority. This need not detain us here, other than to note that they will be wearing a mask to protect themselves in such circumstances, not other people - as those around them will have abandoned theirs. So this is perhaps a moral crutch which will fall away in due course.

The question then becomes what about the meantime? Between now and the 'end' of the pandemic?

Quite apart from the issue of the fact we are still waiting for the 'end' of the 'flu, aka Waiting for Godot, I think it is perfectly reasonable for each person to judge within the law, and within the context in which they find themselves. Just don't imagine that others will necessarily fall in with your notions.

And so try, if possible, not to judge others so harshly for something that, by degrees, you may well find yourself doing in the coming months or years. That is, not wearing a mask. After all, no one is ever going to expect to be able to demand that you not wear a mask, are they?

It comes down to consideration for those around you. That was in diminishing supply even before the pandemic, and the polarisation provoked by covid measures has made that worse I think. I don't criticise those who choose not to wear a mask, but by the same token I don't like it being implied that my choice to continue to wear one is the result of brainwashing and/or having an ovine temperament. No, it is a decision based on the facts I have gathered and my assessment of the best way to proceed based on that evidence gathered. Except insofar as it come into the remit of legal requirement I have chosen to ignore anything the government spouts since in everything it does, pandemic or otherwise, it has demonstrated complete and utter lack of fitness for purpose.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

It comes down to consideration for those around you. That was in diminishing supply even before the pandemic, and the polarisation provoked by covid measures has made that worse I think. I don't criticise those who choose not to wear a mask, but by the same token I don't like it being implied that my choice to continue to wear one is the result of brainwashing and/or having an ovine temperament. No, it is a decision based on the facts I have gathered and my assessment of the best way to proceed based on that evidence gathered. Except insofar as it come into the remit of legal requirement I have chosen to ignore anything the government spouts since in everything it does, pandemic or otherwise, it has demonstrated complete and utter lack of fitness for purpose.

That assessment is spot on.

[french frank]

nearly everyone would acknowledge we can and should revert to normal, including not wearing masks.

But not yet - the latest advice: wear your mask and keep your distance (updated 2 days ago).

I think it is perfectly reasonable for each person to judge within the law, and within the context in which they find themselves. Just don't imagine that others will necessarily fall in with your notions.

Perfectly legal; whether all such 'judgements' are equally 'reasonable' is another matter.

And so try, if possible, not to judge others so harshly for something that, by degrees, you may well find yourself doing in the coming months or years. That is, not wearing a mask.

That begs the question. Just because something becomes sensible, rational, reasonable in 6 months time, doen't make it reasonable now. The advice is:

"COVID-19 will be a feature of our lives for the foreseeable future, so we need to learn to live with it and manage the risk to ourselves and others." The 'and others' is of equal importance. That's why wearing masks is still advised.

[teamsaint]

It comes down to consideration for those around you. That was in diminishing supply even before the pandemic, and the polarisation provoked by covid measures has made that worse I think. I don't criticise those who choose not to wear a mask, but by the same token I don't like it being implied that my choice to continue to wear one is the result of brainwashing and/or having an ovine temperament. No, it is a decision based on the facts I have gathered and my assessment of the best way to proceed based on that evidence gathered. Except insofar as it come into the remit of legal requirement I have chosen to ignore anything the government spouts since in everything it does, pandemic or otherwise, it has demonstrated complete and utter lack of fitness for purpose.

I would add to your comments that it has increasingly important, and increasingly difficult, to have forthright and full discussions on these issues, which are very emotive , whilst retaining respect for the views of others. This isn't always easy, especially, ( IMO ) given the disingenuous nature of much of what the govt chooses to tell us or focus on.
I have certainly found that, at work for example, we are only now beginning to have important conversations on current issues at an individual level, as we have become so fragmented as a society .

[teamsaint]

But not yet - the latest advice: wear your mask and keep your distance (updated 2 days ago).



Perfectly legal; whether all such 'judgements' are equally 'reasonable' is another matter.



That begs the question. Just because something becomes sensible, rational, reasonable in 6 months time, doen't make it reasonable now. The advice is:

"COVID-19 will be a feature of our lives for the foreseeable future, so we need to learn to live with it and manage the risk to ourselves and others." The 'and others' is of equal importance. That's why wearing masks is still advised.

There is a time for obeying instructions and a time for asking questions.
One of my issues with the varying mask directives is that they can easily be used ( and I would say are being used) as a default or cover for taking other, more difficult, controversial, or expensive decisions.
Like expanding ICU capacity as quickly as possible, some might argue, since we were woefully short of this before the pandemic in any case.

And as an edit, I do think that there is a process of undermining personal responsibilty, in all kinds of areas, that is to the detriment of society, where we need to balance personal responsibility and choice with compliance for the good of us all. Just IMO of course.

[oddoneout]

There is a time for obeying instructions and a time for asking questions.
One of my issues with the varying mask directives is that they can easily be used ( and I would say are being used) as a default or cover for taking other, more difficult, controversial, or expensive decisions.
Like expanding ICU capacity as quickly as possible, some might argue, since we were woefully short of this before the pandemic in any case.

And as an edit, I do think that there is a process of undermining personal responsibilty, in all kinds of areas, that is to the detriment of society, where we need to balance personal responsibility and choice with compliance for the good of us all. Just IMO of course.

Yes but should the two always be mutually exclusive - I would argue not. I do obey instructions but I also expect any questions I may have to be answered, particularly where I have my suspicions about the reason for compliance being required/demanded. I think that what has been very unhelpful during the past 18 months is the demand for compliance by an administration which doesn't appear to know which way is up and has been incapable of dealing with queries or sending out consistent (let alone fact based) instructions, and which also has made it blatantly clear that rules are not for everyone. A great many people have had to make their own interpretations and risk assessments based on whatever information they can or choose to access which, coupled with those from all sections of society who have just done their own thing regardless with the only criterion being what suits them, does not make for easy relations. The continuing lack of competent credible leadership for the foreseeable future does not bode well for restoring some element of harmony.

[Prommer]

One of my issues with the varying mask directives is that they can easily be used ( and I would say are being used) as a default or cover for taking other, more difficult, controversial, or expensive decisions.

The spottiest of spot-ons here...

[Andrew]

As a matter of interest do those not wearing masks do regular covid tests?
This crossed my mind this morning as I've had a choir email saying we have to test each week before attending rehearsal. For me this poses a real problem since the only two times I've done the test I vomited and also suffered a prolonged and painful attack of sneezing.

Yes, once a fortnight via work, and it's compulsory! I've been put through this ignominy for almost a year (it maybe more!) and I also have suffered the sneezing fits almost every time. Oh, and by the way, EVERY test I've taken has been negative!

I'm a key worker, "double jabbed", repeatedly tested and have never had a positive Covid-19 test. I reckon that's more than most people have gone through, short of actually catching it. I therefore don't wear a mask, as it's clear to me that my lifestyle, work and general way of life suggests my chances of catching Covid-19 are significantly less than being run over in the car park outside work!