To mask or not to mask

[Dave2002]

reduction in cases - 11% for new surgical masks - 5% for the fancy cloth mask - both reduce on washing
ok some benefit but no panacea - and the trials were done in predominantly unvaccinated populations - we know that double vacc'd people produce a lower viral load and are also considerably less susceptible - my own take is that for the UK surgical masks within a general population >80% double vacc'd are marginal and the fancy cloth masks mere virtue signalling; ok there are some people (maybe 0.5%) who are effectively unvaccinatable but many all?, of these would be highly susceptible to any viral disease and maybe should shield during the winter flu season - those who refuse vaccination for no good medical reason can in my opinion take any consequences.

I'd agree with your suggestions re the approximate % margins, though there might be some evidence that good masks could give as much as 20% benefit - but this is now based on anecdotal and other data I can't verify right now. Some of the "benefits" of mask wearing may indeed be virtue signalling, rather than any real physical or biological effect.

However, I have recently had some conversations with friends. One has two close relatives who were both double vaccinated, and they still managed to catch Covid. Yes - they were well outside the window period when the vaccine might not have taken full effect, and still within the window of overall effectiveness. The report was that it was still a nasty disease - unpleasant experience. Another friend has issues with his lungs, and really doesn't want to catch coronavirus as he's convinced it'll kill him off - vaccinated or not.

I am a lot less cautious than I was a year ago, but monitoring the situation re hospitalisations and deaths in case there are significant changes. We have now cancelled - hopefully with refunds - any outstanding holidays to (what were) red or amber listed countries, though we are hoping to take a trip to mainland Europe next Spring.

The NHS is going to take a long while to recover from this, but at least hopefully it will - unlike some of the patients with Covid or other nasty diseases.

[Bryn]

reduction in cases - 11% for new surgical masks - 5% for the fancy cloth mask - both reduce on washing
ok some benefit but no panacea - and the trials were done in predominantly unvaccinated populations - we know that double vacc'd people produce a lower viral load and are also considerably less susceptible - my own take is that for the UK surgical masks within a general population >80% double vacc'd are marginal and the fancy cloth masks mere virtue signalling; ok there are some people (maybe 0.5%) who are effectively unvaccinatable but many all?, of these would be highly susceptible to any viral disease and maybe should shield during the winter flu season - those who refuse vaccination for no good medical reason can in my opinion take any consequences.

"Neither the laboratory findings nor the mask-trial findings have been peer reviewed." A pretty crucial point to take into consideration re the report linked to.

[french frank]

reduction in cases - 11% for new surgical masks - 5% for the fancy cloth mask

Not quite clear about this (not for the first time ). Is this an actual reduction among cases of those who wear the masks (protective of wearer) or reduction in cases of those who get infected? If the latter, how on earth can they tell people got infected from mask wearers of different kinds? Do they deliberately stick people in the same room with masked (various kinds) and unmasked and see how many end up infected?

[Frances_iom]

... Do they deliberately stick people in the same room with masked (various kinds) and unmasked and see how many end up infected?

read the article - my reading is that issued different masks to different village and none to others then compared infection rates - there was some discussion of mask types but I assume this was a lab test - none of the fancy masks even claim to be able to filter out viruses they are much too small tho bacteria can be filtered and some of the claims seem to be based on this - probably filter out viruses as they are general attached to tiny water droplets and these are filtered out on the mask surface tho quite then what happens to the viral load that was hitching a lift I don' know

[Prommer]

Just looking at the Labour Party conference and Starmer's speech... delegates packed in, indoors, lots of cheering and hallooing, and hardly anyone wearing a mask.

And yet they all make great play of wearing them in the Commons, in contrast to the wicked, reckless Tories.

What ever could be the explanation?

[Bryn]

Just looking at the Labour Party conference and Starmer's speech... delegates packed in, indoors, lots of cheering and hallooing, and hardly anyone wearing a mask.

And yet they all make great play of wearing them in the Commons, in contrast to the wicked, reckless Tories.

What ever could be the explanation?

Long overdue that that lot were unmasked, especially their current leader. Oops, bit political, that.

[french frank]

Today I was forced to take a bus for the first time - or face a total of 3 hours walking. In spite of the notice on that particular bus saying that face coverings were required, the majority were unmasked and were under 30s. I took a single seat (back to window) leaving a seat between me and the nearest, older (unmasked) man. A young (student age) woman sat at the next double seat, facing the front so about 2 feet away from me. Not only was she unmasked but I was delighted when she sneezed twice into my right ear. I elected to walk home after my hospital appointment - one and a half hours. I shan't be catching a bus again soon. I'm due my booster in 10 days, so hope the effects of my first two haven't worn off.

A leafy suburb that has had very low infections over the summer (older population, spacious, detached houses) has, I see today, become one of the worst in the city. It also happens to have a number of student halls of residence. There are three reasons why young people could become spreaders:

1. They mix closely with more people

2. They are less likely to be fully vaccinated

3. They don't wear masks

[Bryn]

I have travelled by bus throughout the pandemic, often being the sole passenger or one of only two or three. When there have been other passengers, most have either been masked or wearing lanyards indicating that they were exempt from masking. In recent weeks, I have noted that more and more are travelling by bus and many, often including the driver, are maskless. Sometimes a fellow passenger will close a window, at which point I get up, got to that window and reopen it. Pointing out the very clearly worded notice stating that all windows must remain open. So far, I have been able to summon enough faux authority to not be challenged. Also, in recent weeks, I have taken the Greenline bus(es) into Victoria (London), a journey taking over 2 hours each way. I have been fortunate to be able to occupy the back seat on the upper deck. When there are either no or only one or two other passengers well ahead of me, I have even been known to remove my facemask.

[Prommer]

I have travelled by bus throughout the pandemic, often being the sole passenger or one of only two or three. When there have been other passengers, most have either been masked or wearing lanyards indicating that they were exempt from masking. In recent weeks, I have noted that more and more are travelling by bus and many, often including the drive, are maskless. Sometimes a fellow passenger will close a window, at which point I get up, got to that window and reopen it. Pointing out the very clearly worded notice stating that all windows must remain open. So far, I have been able to summon enough faux authority to not be challenged. Also, in recent weeks, I have taken the Greenline bus(es) into Victoria (London), a journey taking over 2 hours each way. I have been fortunate to be able to occupy the back seat on the upper deck. When there are either no or only one or two other passengers well ahead of me, I have even been known to remove my facemask.

. You daredevil! Against the rules, but I am with you…

[Dave2002]

I think that during what were perceived as the worst moments of the pandemic it was actually OK to go on buses and trains, as there would be hardly any other passengers.
This does seem to be changing now. I'm not rushing to go back on buses - even though with a bus pass many are free or very cheap.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

At yesterday’s choir practice, the MD began with a surprise question:- “How many of you would prefer to sing without masks?”
That wasn’t really the right question, as singing without a mask would be everyone’s preferred option in an ideal world. However, we knew what she meant, and the initial responses revealed the usual misunderstandings. A group of altos said their choir didn’t wear masks, as though that was some kind of justification. There was still the widespread assumption that people wore masks to protect themselves. It was only the intervention of one of our GP members, who pointed out that the reason for wearing masks was to protect others. After all this time, this doesn’t appear to have sunk in.
A show of hands indicated that only three choir members would not be comfortable if we went massless. However, that was enough for the MD to ask us to continue wearing them for the duration of the rehearsal, and the committee would discuss it on the following day - perhaps with all members doing a lateral flow test before each practice, and with more widely spaced seating.
We shall see.
I was one of the three. The other two were both doctors.

[french frank]

. You daredevil! Against the rules, but I am with you…

I'm with Bryn, too, but maybe you would care to respond to my quite different experience in #322?

[Sir Velo]

I'm with Bryn, too, but may be you would care to respond to my quite different experience in #322?

I expect Prommer will say s/he doesn't travel on buses and that it's obvious your social circles are widely different or that your delightful fellow passenger has probably nothing worse than the common cold to which we all need to be periodically subjected in order to ensure continued immunity.

I

[Sir Velo]

As a matter of interest, and apologies if it has already been raised, but does anyone know what the general attitude towards mask wearing is of those who have had COVID and were previously anti mask - ie do they still virulently protest their rights to go maskless or are they (like the reformed alcoholic or chain smoker) once bitten, twice shy as it were? I've not had COVID myself, but neither am I particularly keen on experiencing it which is why I take what to some might seem extreme precautions....

[Cockney Sparrow]

At yesterday’s choir practice, the MD began with a surprise question:- “How many of you would prefer to sing without masks?”
That wasn’t really the right question, as singing without a mask would be everyone’s preferred option in an ideal world. However, we knew what she meant, and the initial responses revealed the usual misunderstandings. A group of altos said their choir didn’t wear masks, as though that was some kind of justification. There was still the widespread assumption that people wore masks to protect themselves. It was only the intervention of one of our GP members, who pointed out that the reason for wearing masks was to protect others. After all this time, this doesn’t appear to have sunk in.
A show of hands indicated that only three choir members would not be comfortable if we went massless. However, that was enough for the MD to ask us to continue wearing them for the duration of the rehearsal, and the committee would discuss it on the following day - perhaps with all members doing a lateral flow test before each practice, and with more widely spaced seating.
We shall see.
I was one of the three. The other two were both doctors.

The rehearsals I'm attending (symphonic chorus) take every available precaution (pretty much) and we too have at least two medics giving advice. Braving the elements at the break (can be maskless), only removing masks when the rehearsal is in progress (i.e. singing) windows open, big fan by open fire doors, lateral flow tests, all vaccinated please (exceptions negotiated).
Most importantly a CO2 monitor to ensure that there is enough air change going on. We are very conscious that in early March 2020 following their last rehearsal a similar chorus in the next town lost a member and others were hospitalised (at least two ventilated) with others reporting "symptoms consistent with....".

Attendance has held up, it has been suggested those who are prone to feeling cold investigate (borrowing?) ski wear as we move into colder weather. It all depends how much one wants to sing/hates the cold/assesses and assumes the risk I suppose - heartening to see so many sticking with us, but then we have our first indoor concert (local, Cathedral) in two weeks..... (And if all goes well another in February and the Sage in May).

I'm assuming the risk of attending the rehearsals but feel reluctant to travel into London, Brum etc to sit amongst an unknown quantity of non-mask wearers where the other unknowns are what else contribute to the risks they are delivering to me - unvaccinated? untested, in the pub last night? etc etc. And other unkowns like how much air changes in the train/bus/auditorium.....

There's not much point carrying on discussing masks (or vaccine passports) as at all times since the end of the last lockdown running risk has been, and continues to be my personal decision. And I won't be out there contributing to the city economy for the foreseeable.......