To mask or not to mask

[french frank]

how is this measured ? if just a cookie setting then delete all torygraph originated cookies and you are back as one of the great unwatched.

I'm not overly bothered . If I remove all the cookies I'd presumably have to go through the rigmarole of reregistering.

[teamsaint]

I'm over my free quota Tit for tat, perhaps their figures should be taken with a pinch of salt too! I don't usually trust/share the Telegraph's stance. On anything, really. Does the Guardian have the story (not that I would automatically swallow it, but at least I would be able to read it)?.

ADD: I can read this bit: "The majority of cases were not detected until patients underwent standard Covid tests, carried out on everyone admitted to hospital for any …" (and there it ends). Mmm, that somewhat clouds the issue: it doesn't sound as if it's saying that those who were discovered to have Covid didn't still need hospitalization, even if they were initially admitted apparently for something else?

It was widely reported , but not in the G or on the BBC as far as I can see.

Try this.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/covid-hospitalisations-over-half-tested-positive-after-admission-b947875.html

I think the learning ( must stop using that expression)is that very substantial numbers of covid “ patients” would not be admitted just for their covid condition, hence the need for caution on the figures for deaths( for example) as mentioned by Andrew.

BTW FF, I got a letter from the BBC today offering a £63 refund on my licence, which I wasn’t expecting. Blown it on new walking boots

I have to say I was surprised how quickly this happened.

[french frank]

Try this.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/c...n-b947875.html

Don't want to nitpick (yes, I do! - and why not?), but doesn't it also depend why they were admitted? E.g. It could have been for mis/undiagnosed symptoms of Covid which were then diagnosed once they'd been admitted and tested. Zoe says that 20% of Covid patients reported chest pains, for example, which could have been diagnosed as possible heart trouble. I agree the figures do leave room for some doubt. Won't stop me wearing a mask, though, even if it does strike fear in the insouciant maskless.

BTW FF, I got a letter from the BBC today offering a £63 refund on my licence, which I wasn’t expecting. Blown it on new walking boots

I have to say I was surprised how quickly this happened.

Crumbs, did I miss something? Or have I forgotten? Why did they give you £63?

[Frances_iom]

I tried earlier to point out that not all deaths were from Covid but that many were with Covid - I can't find the quote but it came up in the somewhat smaller case of the Isle of Man as on one message board a surgeon from the hospital corrected one poster that patients entered hospital for other reasons.
Covid may well have been the last straw in many cases but many deaths were of people who were seriously ill tho obviously no one can be sure that they wouldn't have pulled through without Covid - obviously the necessary isolation makes treatment of these people more difficult and costly in terms of staff

[teamsaint]

Don't want to nitpick (yes, I do! - and why not?), but doesn't it also depend why they were admitted? E.g. It could have been for mis/undiagnosed symptoms of Covid which were then diagnosed once they'd been admitted and tested. Zoe says that 20% of Covid patients reported chest pains, for example, which could have been diagnosed as possible heart trouble. I agree the figures do leave room for some doubt. Won't stop me wearing a mask, though, even if it does strike fear in the insouciant maskless.



Crumbs, did I miss something? Or have I forgotten? Why did they give you £63?

I cancelled my licence from 31/10/21, and they kindly said I was due a refund, which I wasn't expecting . No calculation given. I paid by DD , so sort of assume that had paid some in advance.
Can’t take the boots back now, so hope they really do send me the cash

[french frank]

I cancelled my licence from 31/10/21, and they kindly said I was due a refund, which I wasn't expecting . No calculation given. I paid by DD , so sort of assume that had paid some in advance.
Can’t take the boots back now, so hope they really do send me the cash

Wonder whether I can claim my human rights are being infringed because they don't broadcast anything I want to listen to or watch

Happy tramping with the boots.

[Prommer]

Quite apart from the with/of debate earlier, let us also not forget the poor buggers who are admitted to hospital with other problems, and then (as with MRSAs) they contract Covid too.

[Old Grumpy]

I cancelled my licence from 31/10/21, and they kindly said I was due a refund, which I wasn't expecting . No calculation given. I paid by DD , so sort of assume that had paid some in advance.
Can’t take the boots back now, so hope they really do send me the cash

I was wondering about your refund too - I thought it might be to do with this: https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/transmitter

This affected us for a time after the event, but I was able to retune the TV to another transmitter. AFAIK we do not live in the neighbourhood of the beast - far from it...

...God's own country, in fact!

[Cockney Sparrow]

Quite apart from the with/of debate earlier, let us also not forget the poor buggers who are admitted to hospital with other problems, and then (as with MRSAs) they contract Covid too.

Or they caught it from some unsyptomatic bugger, who gave it to them to take in with them (and infect yet others). Might even have not been wearing a mask - either or both of them. Its the exercise of freedoms, isnt it, that's important.

Meanwhile lets have lots and lots more context, discussion and call for statistics of bus related deaths** of the fully recovered within 28 days of a positive covid test.

** or substitute any local story that you suggests relates to the thousands of infections, after effects and hundreds of dead and should determine policy for the entire population.

Don't need to read this - its only hard evidence:

I thought I'd seen a (BBC TV) news report on a recent study:

Nature (Journal) 9 September 2021
"Face masks protect against COVID-19. That’s the conclusion of a gold-standard clinical trial in Bangladesh, which backs up the findings of hundreds of previous observational and laboratory studies…….”

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02457-y

[Prommer]

I understand the problem of people contracting Covid IN hospitals (as in care homes) has been a big one over the last 18 months, and not something that should lightly be dismissed.

[Frances_iom]

...

Don't need to read this - its only hard evidence:

reduction in cases - 11% for new surgical masks - 5% for the fancy cloth mask - both reduce on washing
ok some benefit but no panacea - and the trials were done in predominantly unvaccinated populations - we know that double vacc'd people produce a lower viral load and are also considerably less susceptible - my own take is that for the UK surgical masks within a general population >80% double vacc'd are marginal and the fancy cloth masks mere virtue signalling; ok there are some people (maybe 0.5%) who are effectively unvaccinatable but many all?, of these would be highly susceptible to any viral disease and maybe should shield during the winter flu season - those who refuse vaccination for no good medical reason can in my opinion take any consequences.

[Prommer]

Not strictly on masks, but just received this from ENO. Clearly there had been complaints and grumbling...

"Clarification: Covid-Security Guidelines at in-person ENO events

In response to feedback from the piece in last week's e-newsletter, we just wanted to clarify our Covid-Security Guidelines.

Only in-person members events, such as the Opera Previews, the thanksgiving recital and the Evening with... events will require you to present a negative LFD test taken within the last 24 hours before arrival. The reason for this is because guests will be in a small space with our panellists, which includes some of our artists. We know this seems like a pain but if our cast and crew get Covid, we would be at risk of cancelling performances.

However, you do not need to do this for ENO performances and dress rehearsals as you will not be in close proximity to our cast and crew. You can read more about our Covid-Security Guidelines at ENO Members events below.

We hope that's clear and apologies for any confusion caused."

[Cockney Sparrow]

"Clarification: Covid-Security Guidelines at in-person ENO events

In response to feedback from the piece in last week's e-newsletter, we just wanted to clarify our Covid-Security Guidelines.

Only in-person members events, such as the Opera Previews, the thanksgiving recital and the Evening with... events will require you to present a negative LFD test taken within the last 24 hours before arrival. The reason for this is because guests will be in a small space with our panellists, which includes some of our artists. We know this seems like a pain but if our cast and crew get Covid, we would be at risk of cancelling performances.

However, you do not need to do this for ENO performances and dress rehearsals as you will not be in close proximity to our cast and crew. You can read more about our Covid-Security Guidelines at ENO Members events below.

We hope that's clear and apologies for any confusion caused."

ENO is an organisation with an annual budget/turnover of some millions (must be millions, even in the beggared state ENO has been mismanaged to).

As for the NHS, or any organisation that has such a budget and/or carries public and employer liability insurance, they will take care to comply with the requirements of the government - legal and no doubt advice (the latter as it interfaces with the requirements of any insurer they may have). As an employer they need to protect their workers - long term contracted or self employed.

There are no doubt many, many able and willing solicitors and barristers willing to pursue claims for negligence that result in harms from Covid. My take on the wording in your post is that ENO's major concern is to protect its workers, and itself.

Audience members in the small spaces will have considered the risks of being present and are entitled to come along and swap Covid and other viruses as they wish - the personal freedoms (constant feature of this thread) they are allowed to exercise in England and the very reason why (as I have constantly indicated) I won't presently be going - to auditoriums or similar events in rooms large or small.

[french frank]

As an employer they need to protect their workers - long term contracted or self employed.

Yes, I picked up on that point (but, battle fatigue …). The audience, as you say, is free to spread the virus and take it home to their families.

[Prommer]

To be clear, I wasn't actually applauding this, just providing more data points on current practice. Personally, I would much prefer to be asked for evidence of vaccination and indeed a negative test result, than be compelled to wear a mask in perpetuo. They are not the same thing, but this to me would be more meaningful community mitigation and also provide a pleasanter experience when you are there.

One other thing: though he does not frame it in this way (the reverse, in fact), Pullinger's article on Bachtrack raises the nice question of whether ongoing mask-wearing encourages people to turn out, or deters them. Six of one, and half a dozen of the other, I suspect...