To mask or not to mask

[Old Grumpy]

Not on this, I think - but sometimes one is moved by other people, aka 'the herd', however much one dislikes the notion. Marketing etc sadly works, sometimes, even on those who would resist the very idea that they could be so influenced.

So Common, Marketing, don't you think. At least we brave Brexit Britons do not follow the herd!

[antongould]

Being, last week, without a car - I know !!!!!! - I went on about 5 local buses through the pit heaps and found that as a mask wearer I was one of about 30% and the average age of the total population would be late mid to late sixties I would guess ….. rather scary

[oddoneout]

Being, last week, without a car - I know !!!!!! - I went on about 5 local buses through the pit heaps and found that as a mask wearer I was one of about 30% and the average age of the total population would be late mid to late sixties I would guess ….. rather scary

Probably a similar group to those who thought that they were safe after their first jab and happily started socialising straightaway, thanks to the almost complete lack of publicity about the need for both jabs and a period of time to allow the body to provide the necessary response for maximum protection. Once an idea takes hold it is difficult to impossible to shift, especially when it runs counter to what people want to do.
Interesting thing at choir last night. Some members, having attended a couple of sessions, didn't feel they wanted to carry on after all just yet, which was not unexpected, we'll hope to see them back at some point. What was rather more surprising was a non-continuation decision in response to the request for mask wearing when moving around/socialising etc, ie more crowded than the spaced out rehearsal layout, and tests before attending rehearsal each week. Apparently they didn't want overt reminders of the continued existence of covid and had wanted to get away from all that at choir. Perhaps having found out that everybody was fully vaccinated they had assumed it would be business as normal? Admittedly the first rehearsal was rather free and easy so perhaps tended to gave that impression but a re-evaluation has resulted in the specific mask wearing and test requests and a more organised approach to the seating layout for subsequent rehearsals.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yesterday I was on the steam gondola on Coniston Water. We were requested to wear masks, but after boarding, very few were complying, until the captain requested that we did. Then all but one couple (who later did most, no all, of the complaining) refused. Later we saw the same couple in a café in the Coniston village, where they were being equally difficult about all sorts of things.

[french frank]

Once an idea takes hold it is difficult to impossible to shift, especially when it runs counter to what people want to do.

I think that is probably the major factor that influences the actions of the majority. If I understand what Socrates was saying, concepts of 'right' and 'wrong' are based on knowledge and reasoning, rather than opinion and inclination. People only choose to do 'wrong' when they see some benefit to themselves; or through ignorance.

Meanwhile, anecdotally in the green'grocer's this morning all three customers were masked - in spite of the fact that the entire shop frontage is open to the air (no glass). The greengrocer was not masked but stood behind a screen.

[Prommer]

So Common, Marketing, don't you think. At least we brave Brexit Britons do not follow the herd!

Did you vote for Brexit? A lot of people did, of course, but not by an overwhelming majority. Though as events have shown, it was more than enough.

I think my point was simply that we are all influenced by other people. Mask wearers and not. Even if that is annoying to contemplate sometimes. And here too!

I was on the tube this morning (Victoria Line going north) and c. 30% maskless. No great conclusions to be drawn on race, gender, age.

[Prommer]

Yesterday I was on the steam gondola on Coniston Water. We were requested to wear masks, but after boarding, very few were complying, until the captain requested that we did. Then all but one couple (who later did most, no all, of the complaining) refused. Later we saw the same couple in a café in the Coniston village, where they were being equally difficult about all sorts of things.

Were they clutching angry copies of the Daily Mail?

[Cockney Sparrow]

Once an idea takes hold it is difficult to impossible to shift, especially when it runs counter to what people want to do.

Very, very true. And very much accommodated by Johnson's abandonment of governance to personal choice - his supporters will be re-assured, his complacent nature is coming through........just what they voted for.

Interesting thing at choir last night. Some members, having attended a couple of sessions, didn't feel they wanted to carry on after all just yet, which was not unexpected, we'll hope to see them back at some point. What was rather more surprising was a non-continuation decision in response to the request for mask wearing when moving around/socialising etc, ie more crowded than the spaced out rehearsal layout, and tests before attending rehearsal each week. Apparently they didn't want overt reminders of the continued existence of covid and had wanted to get away from all that at choir. Perhaps having found out that everybody was fully vaccinated they had assumed it would be business as normal? Admittedly the first rehearsal was rather free and easy so perhaps tended to gave that impression but a re-evaluation has resulted in the specific mask wearing and test requests and a more organised approach to the seating layout for subsequent rehearsals.

At rehearsals for one choir, social distancing up to a point (that was an eve of 1st rehearsal reverse ferret) and a high roof with really very limited low level windows (even if they all open) or other ventilation (none going out at the high chapel roof level so far as I know). All need to be double vaccinated or not on medical gorunds. Open arched doors at the back onto the open air - all in all that isn't good enough for me. I've recused myself for this term.

The choir I have decided to rehearse with:

• requires our double vaccination or "discuss with the GP committee member"
• asks us all to lateral flow test that day (still – 4th rehearsal; no counter sentiment, I think).
• 1.5m distanced in the school hall,
• has good number and size of window openings – they all open (about 30 - 40 cm at the bottom & all are opened)
• message to all - wear/bring layers, bring hats! bring fingerless gloves - or stay at home and use zoom.....,
• no social conversations in the hall, please (OK, keep it down, no groups inside in practice)
• go straight to the empty chair at the front of the section on arrival, leave in reverse order
• our break has to be outside in the open air to maximise air change, - can talk with each other there
• maskless only when the rehearsal is in progress
• uses a CO2 monitor during the rehearsal - if it goes too high - indicating inadequate air change, the rehearsal would be over. (I find the monitoring very reassuring)

That's what I call minimising risk, given the transmission factors. I know some of those (maybe 10% or so) who haven't returned to live rehearsals need to almost isolate themselves and no-one is pressured to take part and their membership is unaffected.

If there was any group of people I would trust to play their part and minimise risks to others, its this choir. We are quite a disciplined bunch (without being unnecessarily submissive) We all want to sing again! ....together.

Our music director, accompanist and committee has done its very best to keep us together, in touch and singing when and where possible. They have our support, and appreciation for their considerable efforts and competence.

[Prommer]

I note that some European choirs and opera casts are rehearsing IN masks? What do we think of that?

At the ROH, they are doing this (I think). And then taking them off in performance (obvs).

Though last year (and since?) some choruses have been singing in masks too, on stage.

Bonkers, of course, and anything less likely to pack 'em in and get the Arts going again in a viable way, I cannot imagine.

[Prommer]

And the contrary view...https://bachtrack.com/opinion-covid-...september-2021

[Prommer]

More news from the front, via a friend, and for what it is worth: at Covent Garden tonight, 90% maskless.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I note that some European choirs and opera casts are rehearsing IN masks? What do we think of that?

At the ROH, they are doing this (I think). And then taking them off in performance (obvs).

Though last year (and since?) some choruses have been singing in masks too, on stage.

Bonkers, of course, and anything less likely to pack 'em in and get the Arts going again in a viable way, I cannot imagine.

The choir I’m in rehearses in singing masks. They’re very good, but there’s still a residual problem of spectacles steaming up.

[Dave2002]

It seems likely that young people will continue to spread variants of the virus for the near future. Hopefully this won't cause too many of them severe problems, but it may still mean that older people do get extra exposure if they mix with younger people - which many do - having children, grand-children etc.

https://inews.co.uk/news/education/chris-whitty-12-to-15-year-old-covid-jab-vaccination-schools-1212417

The daily death count in the UK appears to have been at an average of around 140 for the last week or so - and if extrapolated over 365 days that would still represent over 50,000 deaths/year. Covid isn't the only disease, and in the past there have been years in which deaths from 'flu were close to 50,000 - but that's severe.

Flu infections have been low since the coronavirus outbreak, but whether that's going to continue is by no means certain.

We really don't know yet whether things are going to get considerably worse directly due to Covid during the next few months - though it is now clear that there are knock on effects on other aspects of health and economies.
Whether this suggests that we should all take (possibly unnecessary) precautions or not is still an open question.

I am unsure about the effectiveness of enforcing rules for mask wearing when moving around, and then relaxing them once seated.

[oddoneout]

I am unsure about the effectiveness of enforcing rules for mask wearing when moving around, and then relaxing them once seated.

When seated the number of people you would be able to direct your aerosols at would be fewer than when circulating, in possibly restricted spaces, even if the seating isn't spaced out, is my assumption. Admittedly that doesn't take account of the efficiency or otherwise of the ventilation arrangements to remove the seated emissions.
At choir we are arranged with an empty seat each side and to the front of each person, but reaching those seats means negotiating past others to get through the doors and down the aisles. Coupled with turning heads round to acknowledge and possibly speak to others on the way could create quite a trail in several directions, hence the request to stay masked until seated.
I was musing at last week's rehearsal about how effective crossways ventilation is, whether it creates "hotspots" as it travels in from the side towards the middle, and how the pattern of circulation will change once the heating goes on - hot air rising and increasing the inflow of outside air which is presumably good but is going to prove difficult for those sitting next to a window.

[Cockney Sparrow]

It seems likely that young people will continue to spread variants of the virus for the near future. Hopefully this won't cause too many of them severe problems, but it may still mean that older people do get extra exposure if they mix with younger people - which many do - having children, grand-children etc.

https://inews.co.uk/news/education/chris-whitty-12-to-15-year-old-covid-jab-vaccination-schools-1212417

The daily death count in the UK appears to have been at an average of around 140 for the last week or so - and if extrapolated over 365 days that would still represent over 50,000 deaths/year. Covid isn't the only disease, and in the past there have been years in which deaths from 'flu were close to 50,000 - but that's severe.

Flu infections have been low since the coronavirus outbreak, but whether that's going to continue is by no means certain.

We really don't know yet whether things are going to get considerably worse directly due to Covid during the next few months - though it is now clear that there are knock on effects on other aspects of health and economies.
Whether this suggests that we should all take (possibly unnecessary) precautions or not is still an open question.

I am unsure about the effectiveness of enforcing rules for mask wearing when moving around, and then relaxing them once seated.

Responses to the many aspects of your post could sustain many pages - yet, myself, I am fighting fatigue already in this thread. (If only I had authoritative and educated opinions to offer in purely musical threads I should put my efforts in there - whilst I'm alive and well enough to do that, of course. The problem is, I'm far too poorly educated in musical matters to "hold my end up" there - I mostly look at those threads, not post).

I've put some of your questions in bold. But this thread has mostly addressed "whether we should all take".. "precautions"- by wearing masks. And, as could be predicted, we cannot reach unanimous agreement that it would be a good idea, despite the evidence of an authoritative published study of observed behaviour and outcomes. A study which I have cited twice in this thread. Over 29 pages that has been the subject of exchanges between members (no pages of puns, so far!). As to your other questions........ (the thought occurs to me what do you think about the answers to the questions?)...........

This is undoubtedly repetition, but to summarise my conclusion - whether to wear a mask isn't an open question for me - I should and I wish others would as well. My expectation is that a significant but unpredictable portion of those I will end up close to, for longer or shorter periods, won't wear a mask to lower my risk. But, to lower the risk to others, I will wear a mask - and get a small protective benefit myself. And limit my presence in such places.

"...possibly unnecessary....." - does that mean, only as examples: the virus might be endemic by Spring, there won't be virulent variants arising from the unvaccinated billions arriving? Possibly. Anything might be possible, either way. Some people feel they can see into the future, feel in their bones there is no problem....there will be no problem. What am I going to do? - repeat - wear a mask, minimise my presence with the maskless, take other precautions- sanitising etc. It might not be a big risk as a number, but the downside from infection could well be very injurious.

I'm not sure if there is a difference - you live in Scotland, there are, I think, different legal requirements (I'm glad I don't have to monitor the Daily Sturgeon). I live in the South of England.
In England there is no law requiring mask wearing, its a free choice and people are exercising it. It will be difficult to take that freedom away from the unmasked if infections rage uncontrollably. In any case I have very little confidence in the ability of the justice system to enforce any law re-enacted so I come back to measures to protect myself, and manage my risk.

I presume, if you had to use crowded buses, trains, food and essential shops, hospital/GP waiting areas etc, you would also consider your own protection in whatever degree you aim for, in the light of the factors in your situation, your thought process and eventual decisions?

I should wish the very best to members here as they navigate their way through our (presently) unlocked society.
CS