To mask or not to mask

[french frank]

Your last point is half right: we all ultimately have to (and do) favour our own beliefs (and, not quite so often) freedoms - but as against over those of others who may not share them.

I am probably considerably more tolerant of other people's religious beliefs than many people (but even in religion, there may be a gap between what someone believes and what they do/how they behave in the world here below), but beliefs and consequent behaviour which go dead against scientific fact are harder to a) understand b) to forgive.

To be clear: the above states my belief but doesn't give me the right to physically attack, be verbally abusive or constrain someone who is doing nothing which the law doesn't permit.

[Frances_iom]

thus I assume that you concur that those who refuse vaccination for no good reason are those who should be restrained in their behaviour as it is amply demonstrated that they vastly outnumber the double vaccinated in ITU and because their viral load is considerably higher and apparently lasts longer than the double vaccinated spread it considerably further around.

[Serial_Apologist]

thus I assume that you concur that those who refuse vaccination for no good reason are those who should be restrained in their behaviour as it is amply demonstrated that they vastly outnumber the double vaccinated in ITU and because their viral load is considerably higher and apparently lasts longer than the double vaccinated spread it considerably further around.

That would be rather stretching the concept of acting out of faith, though.

[Cockney Sparrow]

I am probably considerably more tolerant of other people's religious beliefs than many people (but even in religion, there may be a gap between what someone believes and what they do/how they behave in the world here below), but beliefs and consequent behaviour which go dead against scientific fact are harder to a) understand b) to forgive.

To be clear: the above states my belief but doesn't give me the right to physically attack, be verbally abusive or constrain someone who is doing nothing which the law doesn't permit.

I agree, but in the current discussion, we're far beyond the point where that is being considered afresh or a new response given. All reasonable discussion has had no effect. Evidence cited and valid points have not been answered directly - all the sidestepping and non-answering, distracting responses show there really isn't a rational response to justify the failure to wear masks, so there seems little point in my continuing here, much. I'm not saying I would not ever add anything to this thread, but - in the main point of changing the outcome on the issue concerned, posting further seems a waste of time.

[Serial_Apologist]

I agree, but in the current discussion, we're far beyond the point where that is being considered afresh or a new response given. All reasonable discussion has had no effect. Evidence cited and valid points have not been answered directly - all the sidestepping and non-answering, distracting responses show there really isn't a rational response to justify the failure to wear masks, so there seems little point in my continuing here, much. I'm not saying I would not ever add anything to this thread, but - in the main point of changing the outcome on the issue concerned, posting further seems a waste of time.

I know the feeling.........

[french frank]

but - in the main point of changing the outcome on the issue concerned, posting further seems a waste of time.

Yes, I'm treating it as more of a Socratic Dialogue

[Not sure who Frances_iom was responding to. If to me, no, I don't think so, but I'm not sure.]

[Frances_iom]

..All reasonable discussion has had no effect. ....

my rational response is that the behaviour of non-mask wearing double vaccinated individuals has little effect on ITU admissions which are predominantly those unvaccinated individuals - the average mask is I suggest of marginal utility in stopping the spread and those who are not vaccinated I suspect are those who wouldn't wear masks anyway.

[french frank]

my rational response is that the behaviour of non-mask wearing double vaccinated individuals has little effect on ITU admissions which are predominantly those unvaccinated individuals - the average mask is I suggest of marginal utility in stopping the spread and those who are not vaccinated I suspect are those who wouldn't wear masks anyway.

But 'predominantly' and 'marginal' suggest that mask-wearing is still indicated?

"The report shows that 489 of 742 people (65.9%) who died of the delta variant within 28 days of a positive covid test between 1 February 2021 and 2 August 2021, had received at least one dose of the vaccine. 54.1% (402 of 742) had received both doses. This seems like an alarming set of statistics, but with an imperfect vaccine and high vaccination coverage, it is exactly what we would expect."

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/08/25/significant-proportions-of-people-admitted-to-hospital-or-dying-from-covid-19-in-england-are-vaccinated-this-doesnt-mean-the-vaccines-dont-work/

[Prommer]

Yes, I'm treating it as more of a Socratic Dialogue

Exactly.

[Frances_iom]

But 'predominantly' and 'marginal' suggest that mask-wearing is still indicated?

"The report shows that 489 of 742 people (65.9%) who died of the delta variant within 28 days of a positive covid test between 1 February 2021 and 2 August 2021, had received at least one dose of the vaccine. 54.1% (402 of 742) had received both doses. ,,,

I'm in the 75-80 age bracket - my 2v+2 was early May thus the majority of this period covers the period before being fully double vaccinated was possible for most - also as pointed out elsewhere dying with covid was not necessarily because of covid - most double vacc'd in this period would be high risk ie those with other problems.

I suggest looking at the US statistics where there is high numbers of anti-vaxers - I've seen quoted figures of 91% deaths are non vaccinated and of the rest single vaccinated outnumber the double vacc;d by nearly 10:1

[french frank]

I'm in the 75-80 age bracket - my 2v+2 was early May thus the majority of this period covers the period before being fully double vaccinated was possible for most - also as pointed out elsewhere dying with covid was not necessarily because of covid - most double vacc'd in this period would be high risk ie those with other problems.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The BMJ blog from a month ago clearly states "who died of the delta variant within 28 days of a positive covid test".

I suggest looking at the US statistics where there is high numbers of anti-vaxers - I've seen quoted figures of 91% deaths are non vaccinated and of the rest single vaccinated outnumber the double vacc;d by nearly 10:1

But that would be the case in the US (or something like it), wouldn't it? since a lower percentage of people in the US have been vaccinated. The "high" numbers of vaccinated/double vaccinated deaths here is because most people have had at least one jab. Or am I not understanding ? The point is that double vaccinated or not, there is still a risk you could get seriously ill and die. The fact that the risk is pretty small (which it is) is no compensation for the families and individuals where death does occur, and does so because they were infected by someone else.

[Bryn]

my rational response is that the behaviour of non-mask wearing double vaccinated individuals has little effect on ITU admissions which are predominantly those unvaccinated individuals - the average mask is I suggest of marginal utility in stopping the spread and those who are not vaccinated I suspect are those who wouldn't wear masks anyway.

Not particularly rational at all. Masks principally protect others from viruses expelled from the mouth and/or nose by the wearer. This is what one might call mask-wearing 100, not even 101.

[Prommer]

Purely anecdotal evidence on mask-wearing, outside musical venues - the West End... I went to the Gieldgud Theatre last night for the first preview of Hilary Mantel's The Mirror and the Light.

Quite a lot of mask wearing on arrival, to get in the front door, which had evaporated once people got to their seats. In the dress circle, no more than 10% kept them on during the performance. I would guess about 40% put them back on to leave.

I was quite surprised, especially given the likely fairly high quotient of 'Guardian readers' present for this play.

More news, from your intrepid reporter, as I get it...

[french frank]

Purely anecdotal evidence on mask-wearing, outside musical venues - the West End... I went to the Gieldgud Theatre last night for the first preview of Hilary Mantel's The Mirror and the Light.

Quite a lot of mask wearing on arrival, to get in the front door, which had evaporated once people got to their seats. In the dress circle, no more than 10% kept them on during the performance. I would guess about 40% put them back on to leave.

I was quite surprised, especially given the likely fairly high quotient of 'Guardian readers' present for this play.

More news, from your intrepid reporter, as I get it...

It's interesting to know, even anecdotally, what "people are doing". But that wouldn't guide my own choices - does it guide yours?

[Prommer]

It's interesting to know, even anecdotally, what "people are doing". But that wouldn't guide my own choices - does it guide yours?

Not on this, I think - but sometimes one is moved by other people, aka 'the herd', however much one dislikes the notion. Marketing etc sadly works, sometimes, even on those who would resist the very idea that they could be so influenced.