To mask or not to mask

[Andrew]

I think it would be a good idea to differentiate between those individuals who are "anti-vaccination" (of which I am NOT one) and those who are "anti-mask wearing" (with which I have sympathy) The topic is entitled "To Mask of Not To Mask" and I think we should not tar all non-mask wearers as being inherently against the vaccine programme; I, for one am certainly NOT an anti vaccine believer.

[Prommer]

I think it would be a good idea to differentiate between those individuals who are "anti-vaccination" (of which I am NOT one) and those who are "anti-mask wearing" (with which I have sympathy) The topic is entitled "To Mask of Not To Mask" and I think we should not tar all non-mask wearers as being inherently against the vaccine programme; I, for one am certainly NOT an anti vaccine believer.

Me too! Very happy to have been jabbed.

[Bryn]

I think it would be a good idea to differentiate between those individuals who are "anti-vaccination" (of which I am NOT one) and those who are "anti-mask wearing" (with which I have sympathy) The topic is entitled "To Mask of Not To Mask" and I think we should not tar all non-mask wearers as being inherently against the vaccine programme; I, for one am certainly NOT an anti vaccine believer.

I will simply remind Andrew, Prommer and others of a similar outlook that while vaccination is principally a matter of self-protection, mask-wearing is, in turn, principally an issue of protecting others. Vaccination is not 100% effective in preventing infection, which, when it does occur in the vaccinated, is often symptomless but still very much transmissible.

[cloughie]

I will simply remind Andrew, Prommer and others of a similar outlook that while vaccination is principally a matter of self-protection, mask-wearing is, in turn, principally an issue of protecting others. Vaccination is not 100% effective in preventing infection, which, when it does occur in the vaccinated, is often symptomless but still very much transmissible.

You tell them Bryn but it seems to be stony ground. Why do people assume it won’t get them or that problem is over.

[Prommer]

Are you saying that you especially wish to protect the unvaccinated, and those who are younger and who have not yet received their jab? By wearing masks long after it is may be strictly necessary for oneself and other responsible members of society?

You seem to be asking others to retain masks in order to flatten the curve or squash the sombrero of remaining cases (now at a much lower level than they were, suggesting we are in an epidemic).

I think the experience of the last 18 months tells us that this is not being very realistic. You are merely delaying the lesser curves we will have in future. One of the reasons for the Government loosening restrictions over the summer is surely in recognition of that, and to try to ensure that of the cases that are going to occur, more do so in the summer months and not in the middle of winter.

There is indeed a small (really quite small) proportion of people who cannot receive a vaccination (and I'm afraid I am not counting conspiracy theorists and the merely needle-shy). But are we really proposing to keep things as they are until Covid completely disappears? This will be a very long time indeed, as influenza demonstrates.

But, equally, I am not on the side of those who think vaccination should actually be compulsory. For if one is that concerned about Covid even in the epidemic phase, that is the logic of your 'elimination' position, and tinkering around with masks is neither here or there.

You may not agree, but I hope my position on these various points is clear enough.

[Frances_iom]

...Vaccination is not 100% effective in preventing infection, which, when it does occur in the vaccinated, is often symptomless but still very much transmissible.

so whom are we protecting and from what when simple vaccination reduces it to " often symptomless"

[Bryn]

so whom are we protecting and from what when simple vaccination reduces it to " often symptomless"

By wearing a face covering, preferably a high-efficiency mask, one is offering some protection, to others, from expelled virus which, being asymptomatic, one may not be aware one has the potential to transmit.

[Frances_iom]

By wearing a face covering, preferably a high-efficiency mask, one is offering some protection, to others, from expelled virus which, being asymptomatic, one may not be aware one has the potential to transmit.

but they too being vaccinated will probably be asymptomatic also - I understand that the vaccine is freely available to all and has been for some considerable time.

[Bryn]

but they too being vaccinated will probably be asymptomatic also - I understand that the vaccine is freely available to all and has been for some considerable time.

I see no logic in that to follow. Firstly, while being critical of those who can safely opt for vaccination but who nevertheless refuse to be thus vaccinated, I would still hope to protect them from any virus I might unwittingly expel. Secondly, even the vaccinated might, indeed, become infected but asymptomatic, and thus able to pass on any virus they became infected with due to the failure of an unwittingly infected, double-vaccinated person to wear a face covering. None of the amelioration measures is 100% effective but one must surely do one's best to limit the virus's opportunities to spread.

[oddoneout]

Are you saying that you especially wish to protect the unvaccinated, and those who are younger and who have not yet received their jab? By wearing masks long after it is may be strictly necessary for oneself and other responsible members of society?

You seem to be asking others to retain masks in order to flatten the curve or squash the sombrero of remaining cases (now at a much lower level than they were, suggesting we are in an epidemic).

I think the experience of the last 18 months tells us that this is not being very realistic. You are merely delaying the lesser curves we will have in future. One of the reasons for the Government loosening restrictions over the summer is surely in recognition of that, and to try to ensure that of the cases that are going to occur, more do so in the summer months and not in the middle of winter.

There is indeed a small (really quite small) proportion of people who cannot receive a vaccination (and I'm afraid I am not counting conspiracy theorists and the merely needle-shy). But are we really proposing to keep things as they are until Covid completely disappears? This will be a very long time indeed, as influenza demonstrates.

But, equally, I am not on the side of those who think vaccination should actually be compulsory. For if one is that concerned about Covid even in the epidemic phase, that is the logic of your 'elimination' position, and tinkering around with masks is neither here or there.

You may not agree, but I hope my position on these various points is clear enough.

As I have said before the NHS was not in a good place before the pandemic and those underlying issues remain and have been exacerbated by covid. If a minor inconvenience to me can help to reduce adding to that load then I consider it worth doing. I'm not unduly fussed about whether those I might be helping to protect are deserving or not since that won't be relevant if I should require NHS help (eg accident). Whatever money the state extracts from me will in a good few cases be used in ways I don't agree with but also for things I think worthwhile or necessary, and I just have to accept that.
We cannot "learn to live" with Covid if we don't have something approaching a functioning health service that enables people to deal with "normal" health problems and carry on normal lives( which will include earning money to support themselves, caring for others, putting money into the economy )let alone deal with any future similar emergencies.
A friend phoned this morning to tell me of a cancer diagnosis, another friend a couple of weeks ago. Both of them have been seen in time, are starting treatment, and have a pretty good chance of a favourable outcome. How many have been denied that due to covid pressures? Does the inconvenience of a mask and continuing to show some consideration to others take precedence over the 5 million waiting for hospital referrals and operations? For me, no, and if that's at odds with others then so be it. I've spent most of my life being a square peg in a round hole, why change the habits of a lifetime!

[Serial_Apologist]

I see no logic in that to follow. Firstly, while being critical of those who can safely opt for vaccination but who nevertheless refuse to be thus vaccinated, I would still hope to protect them from any virus I might unwittingly expel. Secondly, even the vaccinated might, indeed, become infected but asymptomatic, and thus able to pass on any virus they became infected with due to the failure of an unwittingly infected, double-vaccinated person to wear a face covering. None of the amelioration measures is 100% effective but one must surely do one's best to limit the virus's opportunities to spread.

[Serial_Apologist]

As I have said before the NHS was not in a good place before the pandemic and those underlying issues remain and have been exacerbated by covid. If a minor inconvenience to me can help to reduce adding to that load then I consider it worth doing. I'm not unduly fussed about whether those I might be helping to protect are deserving or not since that won't be relevant if I should require NHS help (eg accident). Whatever money the state extracts from me will in a good few cases be used in ways I don't agree with but also for things I think worthwhile or necessary, and I just have to accept that.
We cannot "learn to live" with Covid if we don't have something approaching a functioning health service that enables people to deal with "normal" health problems and carry on normal lives( which will include earning money to support themselves, caring for others, putting money into the economy )let alone deal with any future similar emergencies.
A friend phoned this morning to tell me of a cancer diagnosis, another friend a couple of weeks ago. Both of them have been seen in time, are starting treatment, and have a pretty good chance of a favourable outcome. How many have been denied that due to covid pressures? Does the inconvenience of a mask and continuing to show some consideration to others take precedence over the 5 million waiting for hospital referrals and operations? For me, no, and if that's at odds with others then so be it. I've spent most of my life being a square peg in a round hole, why change the habits of a lifetime!

[Cockney Sparrow]

........You seem to be asking others to retain masks in order to flatten the curve or squash the sombrero of remaining cases ......................
.....You are merely delaying the lesser curves we will have in future.............

Yes and Yes. Limits the overload (present and rising) - overload of NHS resources, especially ITU. And would enable the NHS to treat the other serious, life threatening needs. Also the well-being of recipients of care services.

One of the reasons for the Government loosening restrictions over the summer is surely in recognition of that, and to try to ensure that of the cases that are going to occur, more do so in the summer months and not in the middle of winter.

Summer is almost over, winter won't be long now - habits are (being) formed, difficult to change them once formed.

But are we really proposing to keep things as they are until Covid completely disappears? This will be a very long time indeed, as influenza demonstrates.

No. When Covid is as manageable as influenza that would be ideal. We may have to settle for a position in-between. Let's hope that before that point arrives, action can be taken to improve the resources and performance of the health services in the UK. A health and care service already (pre-Pandemic) depleted - ITUs in particular.

Double vaccinated, mask wearing I am giving some protection to the vulnerable should I nonetheless have Covid but no symptoms - when I'm in a position I can't avoid and am in enclosed, poorly ventilated spaces (in particular). In that, those who are not vaccinated would benefit most from the limitation on infection as they are likely to suffer more grievously from Covid, including death. ITUs are disproportionately filling with the unvaccinated. Not wearing masks add to the circulation of the virus from those who have it, but have no symptoms. The studies - well, at least one authoritative study, conclusively show that mask wearing also gives some protection to the wearer.

You may not agree, but I hope my position on these various points is clear enough.

I think most of us here can say "yes" to these two assertions. Given the quantity of messaging, your position can be clarified and you are obviously immune to evidence and points put to you so there is little point in responding further I would suggest. Perhaps others can cite hard evidence about the overall benefits to society in the UK of not wearing masks in crowded and indoor spaces. For the present, we already have an ample example that anti mask wearing, in the way you describe is an exercise of your belief system, or personal sovereignty, or whatever it might be called, and is an example of favouring your beliefs and freedoms over the well-being of others that you live amongst.

[Serial_Apologist]

For the present, we already have an ample example that anti mask wearing, in the way you describe is an exercise of your belief system, or personal sovereignty, or whatever it might be called, and is an example of favouring your beliefs and freedoms over the well-being of others that you live amongst.

I couldn't have put it better. There's a more general principle there, too.

[Prommer]

"Too direct on the first posting"! We have all been guilty of that.

As to my adding further, I hope I can choose to do that, or not - depends if the moment is right. I cannot think I have offended, as such.

Your last point is half right: we all ultimately have to (and do) favour our own beliefs (and, not quite so often) freedoms - but as against over those of others who may not share them.

I think that is a more balanced equation than my belief vs your well-being, or even (dare I say it) your belief vs my well being. And, as we know the days, well being is not reducible simply to physical health and the absence of particular viral infections. This being so, it behoves us and governments to consider this with a broader lens.