To mask or not to mask

[french frank]

Having just returned to UK after a couple of weeks on the IoM I'm belatedly reading my issues of the Tablet - that of 11th Sept has a 2 page article by Adrian Papst (Professor of Politics at University of Kent) "How to renew the promises of liberalism" - he plugs his book "Postliberal Politic" stating that the liberal project has pushed individualism so as to be damaging to institutions etc thus destroying the bedrock of a social contract between people and their representatives.

Yes, except that was what 'liberalism' was all about - the freedom of the individual (esp vis-à-vis the state). It was what the term meant (comes from Latin liber + a book heh, heh)

[LHC]

why not - my own experience is that it is only the older folk still wearing them - yesterday evening Euston to Waterloo I would reckon 50% or less compliance - on train from Liverpool even less - catch is the union leaders have form in pushing anything that requires less work by staff - I'm surprised they haven't requested that tube drivers work from home (if you can kill Afghans from a chair in USA then driving a train remotely should be easy).

I’m not sure it is as clear cut as that (only older people wearing masks).

I have recently had to start using the tube more regularly, and on Saturday I went to see Rigoletto at the Opera House.

My experience on the tube is that only about 50% of users are still wearing masks, but beyond that it is difficult to draw many conclusions about particular demographics. As far as I can see, there are still plenty of younger people wearing masks, as well as pensioners who are unmasked. Similarly there don’t seem to be any particular differences in mask wearing by race or gender that I could see.

Despite the Opera House asking all patrons to wear masks, only about a third of people wore masks while moving around the house or sitting in the auditorium. Again, this level of compliance appeared to common across age and gender boundaries.

Retuning home on the tube on Saturday night, somewhat to my surprise, the level of mask wearing appeared to be rather better than during the day, with most of the people (of all ages) in my carriage wearing masks.

[Cockney Sparrow]

I heard on the radio this morning that today's Grauniad contains an interesting article by George Monbiot, pointing out how the Left in this country has misguidedly taken in some of the Far Right's false rhetoric around issues of personal freedoms. I think maybe some in this forum too? It was high time for this to be spotlighted.

And (again on the radio, Today R4) that he was struck by the number of his "I am healthy because of xxxx so I will not be getting vaccinated" contacts in his mileu are contracting and suffering quite severely. I suppose its natural selection at work...... like gravity and the effluxion of time, its difficult to defy.

[Serial_Apologist]

Very interesting article (thanks for the link, odders). Not sure I appreciate the jibe of 'the compromised, submissive doctrine that calls itself centrism' which is just an insult, even if those, possibly on both sides, hold that view: Monbiot shows that 'both sides' can be equally extremely wrong. Has his radical balance ever been achieved? Or even been clearly articulated? Are we just seeing that hypothetical(?) 'circle' where right and left actually meet and become indistinguishable in certain fields? Is what he describes really a left-right issue? My discomfort with the "centrist" liberals arises from my own personal collectivist, cooperative stance which places duties and obligations to others above individual rights and freedoms. Is Monbiot simply describing the "extreme left", or some of it, rather than the, er, middle of the road left (is there such a thing now?).

Where the belief in insane conspiracy theories comes from, I don't know.

Historically the most fully articulated differentiation between the Left and Right in politics traces back to the initial scarcity caused by the hunter-gatherer mode of common existence leading to settlement, division of labour, and someone therefore needing to be in charge becoming the ruling class. Subsequent progress had always been predicated on the wealth creators, those ordered to produce society's needs, gaining rights from and sometimes over those in control at the top: the slaves whose liberation freed them to sell their labour power; the serfs who became the artisans who became the middle class usurping the aristocracy or absorbing them; the working classes self-organising in solidarity to challenge the power of the middle and ruling layers.

The "responsible centre" of politics has always depended on those at the top adumbrating deflective tactics and strategies to perpetuate the compliance of the working class, and those in the middle (professionals etc) taking from their lead in forming like means of collective support (guilds, professional organisations, unions, even); the position of "civilised compromise" the Left has described as "class collaboration", aided by reformers and reformist policies designed to mitigate the worst consequences of capitalism, have never faced up to the ways in which divide-and-rule perpetuates the need for scapegoats to divert those in theory destined to take over the running of the world on sustainable lines from understanding the primary systemic inborn character of capitalism's failures - one of whose fostered illusions being of unitary commonalities of interests between those who by dint of privilege inequitably own and control not only the most dominant business empires but the dissemination of information and associated dross of ideological misinformation and manipulation through their media outlets.

It is on the fate of these businesses in the dog-eat-dog context of global corporate power that the livelihoods and even lives of the majority depend, and at the behest of the complexes of state infrastructures lent credibility by balancing the inter-competing interests to maintain social order but who in the finality slam down hard on any inklings of challenge to their control and therefore ways of doing things. The latter includes inducements of one sort or another, corrupting or otherwise, to keep those in the "squeezed middle" on-side. I have to say take some issue with George's assertion about complexity. The world as described is complex because it is flltered through the very grid of concepts and language[s] by which the running of the world is organised, planned and commemorated. The world as it really is is the world as run by nature, which does not have to double-take its way in order to keep a heart beating or nervous systems of any sort in operation. This was the great leap in knowledge that gives us the holistic understanding of the interdependence of its systems being necessary for wisdom in humans' curation of the natural resources we carelessly subcontract into the hands of the rich mis-managers of the planet's fate and ours along with it.

Past societies have understood such eco wisdom as the bedrock for wise living in balanced harmony; we can still learn from them while mindful that they were mostly destroyed by others who had not lived by such principles and came to live by military might. A tendentious thought given the place of the arms industries in "advanced capitalism's success stories".

[muzzer]

BUT this is hypothetical - lets wait and see then react - there is growing IMO a whole lot of public stupidity based on what if where the if may not be at all reasonable.
If we really want to avoid new variants let's follow New Zealand - everyone entering quarantines (and basically have to wait outside the country for a place to do so to become free) whilst they belatedly get round to vaccinating the country - it also reduces CO2 emissions as the half term holiday returnees who basically seeded the 1st epidemic will be blocked from a repeat performance.

Shutting down like NZ is simply not feasible. Covid is not going to wipe out millions. There is no one size fits all solution. But it wouldn’t take much for public opinion to become quite warped imho and that was the point of my post. I’m looking forward to moving forward.

[Serial_Apologist]

And (again on the radio, Today R4) that he was struck by the number of his "I am healthy because of xxxx so I will not be getting vaccinated" contacts in his mileu are contracting and suffering quite severely. I suppose its natural selection at work...... like gravity and the effluxion of time, its difficult to defy.

Well, someone's version of Natural Selection at any rate! I always used to like Blake's quote that "the fool that persists in his folly will become wise", based on an inbuilt presumption of self-correction. Unfortunately we might all be wiped out before such fruition! The M25 blockers want to hurry things along - the trouble is that the person faced with a man holding a gun to their head is more interested in immediate issues than long-term, and the whole western mindset is predicated on "just-in-time" - a phrase denotive of the lack of any wriggle room to ensure business survival we heard a lot of in the past 24 hours viz obtainability of CO2.

[cloughie]

Well, someone's version of Natural Selection at any rate! I always used to like Blake's quote that "the fool that persists in his folly will become wise", based on an inbuilt presumption of self-correction. Unfortunately we might all be wiped out before such fruition! The M25 blockers want to hurry things along - the trouble is that the person faced with a man holding a gun to their head is more interested in immediate issues than long-term, and the whole western mindset is predicated on "just-in-time" - a phrase denotive of the lack of any wriggle room to ensure business survival we heard a lot of in the past 24 hours viz obtainability of CO2.

Rather ironic that in a World where we are worrying about global warming because there’s too much CO2 being produced we are set to starve because of a shortage of it stopping food production.

[Frances_iom]

Shutting down like NZ is simply not feasible. Covid is not going to wipe out millions. There is no one size fits all solution. But it wouldn’t take much for public opinion to become quite warped imho and that was the point of my post. I’m looking forward to moving forward.

I know - they are in a race to push up vaccination before an outbreak gets beyond their very heavily policed lockdowns - I can't see this coming back to UK

[oddoneout]

Rather ironic that in a World where we are worrying about global warming because there’s too much CO2 being produced we are set to starve because of a shortage of it stopping food production.

That irony struck me as well. Why can't they take it from the air I can hear folks asking. And more irony in providing financial support to a (?)US company to start up its fertiliser(with all the attendant fossil fuel/enviro baggage that brings) making plant again to provide CO2 for the UK needs.

[Andrew]

Finger pointing at one particular group, who are making an entirely legitimate choice is very unhelpful when there are endless examples of people and groups who require serious NHS intervention because of lifestyle choices. We are , for example, one of the most overweight countries in Europe, and have as epidemic of drink related health issue.
Division among the people, created by government and voiced by the media, is a weapon used against us all.
The vaccines have been offered as widely as possible. And it should be remembered that they do have , for some people, negative health impacts, the extent of which is not yet fully understood.

Nice one! I've managed to loose over a stone during the lockdowns, which has been an interesting experience!

[cloughie]

That irony struck me as well. Why can't they take it from the air I can hear folks asking. And more irony in providing financial support to a (?)US company to start up its fertiliser(with all the attendant fossil fuel/enviro baggage that brings) making plant again to provide CO2 for the UK needs.

Indeed - The joys of living in our country which through Brexit has gained its independence in the World. The problem is that it actually owns very few of the companies which operate here and so when anything goes wrong our cap is firmly in our hand. Can anyone tell me what benefits have so far been gained from the Trade Deals around the World which Wonderwoman Truss has sealed for us?

[teamsaint]

Nice one! I've managed to loose over a stone during the lockdowns, which has been an interesting experience!

Excellent.

I have managed to lose a lot of patience…….

[Serial_Apologist]

Indeed - The joys of living in our country which through Brexit has gained its independence in the World. The problem is that it actually owns very few of the companies which operate here and so when anything goes wrong our cap is firmly in our hand. Can anyone tell me what benefits have so far been gained from the Trade Deals around the World which Wonderwoman Truss has sealed for us?

Covid must be one of them, because the PM keeps telling us that as a result of it wage rates are increasing everywhere and so people won't need to worry about the forthcoming energy price increases.

[teamsaint]

Covid must be one of them, because the PM keeps telling us that as a result of it wage rates are increasing everywhere and so people won't need to worry about the forthcoming energy price increases.

If we must have inflation, it would be good , in a purely professional sense, if it affected books, ( if anything) whose RRPs have been defiantly static for a very long time.
( but being careful what you wish for obviously……)

[Prommer]

why not - my own experience is that it is only the older folk still wearing them - yesterday evening Euston to Waterloo I would reckon 50% or less compliance - on train from Liverpool even less - catch is the union leaders have form in pushing anything that requires less work by staff - I'm surprised they haven't requested that tube drivers work from home (if you can kill Afghans from a chair in USA then driving a train remotely should be easy).

I would tend to agree, but the transport union are against driverless trains AS WELL! So sadly that option is kinda closed off.