To mask or not to mask

[Cockney Sparrow]

I would say to the same extent that unvaccinated people should.

I'm not sure whether an unvaccinated person has the same susceptability to acquire Covid and transmit it, having no symptoms (2-3 days) as someone who is vaccinated. I suppose the aspect of Mask wearing or not doesn't matter one way or the other unless there is a difference.

What does matter, in my mind, is that the person who is unvaccinated in the UK with no reason given by a regular medical opinion, and doesn't wear a mask to limit their risk of giving me Covid in those 2 - 3 days in enclosed or close quarter situations, is exercising their freedom at my risk.

They may be, in the genuine sense, ignorant of the matter, they may know there is good reason to do otherwise but choose not to find out about it or ignore it - but I cannot approve it and the presence of those people is my reason to avoid situations where they may be present - which is most situations where people gather closely or indoors.

I'm beginning to think if the NHS record doesn't show vaccination or a medical exemption, those exercising these freedoms should be advised to arrange their own health insurance cover for Covid, or accept they will only get palliative care in non ITU settings, if they choose not to arrange that cover or pay for that treatment. That follows through on freedoms being exercised but responsibility taken for it.

[teamsaint]

[QUOTE=Cockney Sparrow;861408]I'm not sure whether an unvaccinated person has the same susceptability to acquire Covid and transmit it, having no symptoms (2-3 days) as someone who is vaccinated. I suppose the aspect of Mask wearing or not doesn't matter one way or the other unless there is a difference.

What does matter, in my mind, is that the person who is unvaccinated in the UK with no reason given by a regular medical opinion, and doesn't wear a mask to limit their risk of giving me Covid in those 2 - 3 days in enclosed or close quarter situations, is exercising their freedom at my risk.

They may be, in the genuine sense, ignorant of the matter, they may know there is good reason to do otherwise but choose not to find out about it or ignore it - but I cannot approve it and the presence of those people is my reason to avoid situations where they may be present - which is most situations where people gather closely or indoors.

I'm beginning to think if the NHS record doesn't show vaccination or a medical exemption, those exercising these freedoms should be advised to arrange their own health insurance cover for Covid, or accept they will only get palliative care in non ITU settings, if they choose not to arrange that cover or pay for that treatment. That follows through on freedoms being exercised but responsibility taken for it.[/QUOTE]




We don't accept that sort of discrimination with regard to other health issues that come from ( poor) personal choices. It's a very bad road to set off down, IMO, and without precedent in the UK.

[kernelbogey]

I'm not really sure what your point is, KB ? I'm sure you know that I would agree with that.

My point, if I had one, was trying out that response here. I have a good friend who chooses to not get vaccinated (while claiming 'not to be anti-vax' ) and I have struggled to know what to say. I think I have to take the position I illustrated, which is not easy to do in the context of our friendship.

[Cockney Sparrow]

I haven't studied all the criteria for vaccine passports. Given that whether we are to have them seems largely in the gift of the right wing of the Conservative government/party and the proposal has been ditched, it doesn't seem very likely here in this benighted Isle - well, England anyway. My main concern about them would probably be that they could be forged too easily........so how much to rely on them?

However, I found this today - someone's experience of the French vaccine passport system on a touring holiday in France. If I could arrange health insurance at a reasonable cost (which I think I couldn't, currently) I'd be tempted to head for the South of France myself - their vaccination rates are catching up with ours...........

"……traveled from Boulogne-su-Mer - Clement Ferrand - then down under and then back over the Millau Viaduct to Carcassonne. This took us from the east of the Pyrenees visiting several Cathar Castles to the west going over numerous mighty cols from the TdF. Then via the west coast at Biarritz up to the chateaus of the Loire, ending up at Orléans. Great to be back on holiday and the Pyrenean cols were great driving.

Regarding COVID: We downloaded the French AntiCovid app whilst in the UK and scanned in our NHS vaccination certificates. This was hugely useful as all attractions, restaurants and cafes just scanned it efficiently - it made a big difference and did make us feel safer knowing that the other clients had passed the French criteria. Mask wearing was mandatory in numerous outdoor spaces in towns and, mainly, observed. We took our return tests in Tours 2 days before returning home, simple to book in the pharmacy and less than 15 minutes later we had the test result certificate along with a text with a link to download it to our mobile devices along with an update to the French AntiCovid app. Impressively seamless and efficient.
Found completing the Passenger Locator Form along with the API info for Eurotunnel was easily the worst part and took a couple of hours, purely due to technical issues. It was worth it though as our passage back via the tunnel was very straightforward.

All in all we found France the most welcoming it has ever been, both out in the countryside and in the cities. Very glad we went.

[french frank]

I'd add to your comments that we need better info on how far the vaccinated are suffering serious disease, since public policy is focused on vaccination.

This was the CDC info on 'Breakthrough Infections' updated a couple of weeks ago:

What We Know about Vaccine Breakthrough Infections

Vaccine breakthrough infections are expected. COVID-19 vaccines are effective at preventing most infections. However, like other vaccines, they are not 100% effective.
Fully vaccinated people with a vaccine breakthrough infection are less likely to develop serious illness than those who are unvaccinated and get COVID-19.
Even when fully vaccinated people develop symptoms, they tend to be less severe symptoms than in unvaccinated people. This means they are much less likely to be hospitalized or die than people who are not vaccinated.
People who get vaccine breakthrough infections can be contagious.


From Imperial College research:

The study’s analyses of PCR test results also suggest that fully vaccinated people may be less likely than unvaccinated people to pass the virus on to others, due to having a smaller viral load on average and therefore likely shedding less virus.

Professor Paul Elliott, director of the REACT programme from Imperial’s School of Public Health, said: “These findings confirm our previous data showing that both doses of a vaccine offer good protection against getting infected. However we can also see that there is still a risk of infection, as no vaccine is 100% effective, and we know that some double vaccinated people can still become ill from the virus.

“So even with the easing of restrictions, we should still act with caution to help protect one another and curb the rate of infections.”

This is enough information for me to make my choices.

[Cockney Sparrow]

We don't accept that sort of discrimination with regard to other health issues that come from ( poor) personal choices. It's a very bad road to set off down, IMO, and without precedent in the UK.

But those decisions don't place so many health workers at risk to their lives or the sentence of long Covid. Alcoholism, Smoking and Obesity come from long standing addictions and are not capable of being eliminated within 8 or 12 weeks, including the risk of harming others if the decision is to exercise the freedom.

I'm not a philosopher - but correct me - does the right to exercise freedoms come without taking responsibility for the consequences?

As in so many areas of life, choices made where there is no cost attached are very easy to make, are they not?

[kernelbogey]

Anecdotal evidence from Italy (via an Italian resident in England) is that acceptance there of the NHS letter is patchy. FWIW on a recent visit neither of the two restaurants I went to asked for the Certificazione verde Covid-19, or my NHS equivalent. For the above reasons, I opted (for once) to avoid public transport and hired a car.

[french frank]

I'm not a philosopher - but correct me - does the right to exercise freedoms come without taking responsibility for the consequences?

“The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it.” JS Mill, On Liberty

[Andrew]

Sorry KB, just to make a separate point, the only camp I really feel I am in, as anybody on these threads must know, is the anti Vaccine Passport camp. There is no evidence of a public health benefit. Two parliamentary reports also found no justification for them. And I think they are in any case a very dangerous path to go down, as a society.

Well said!

[Dave2002]

If we’re going down the pedantry route, very few road accident victims actually go under the wheels. Usually the unfortunate pedestrian is thrown in the air, receiving serious injuries from the impact.

I can vouch for that as it happened to me many years ago - though fortunately I wasn't really hurt. I remember seeing the car/van coming at me, and then the next thing I was up and over the bonnet. I was running along the pavement, and the vehicle emerged at some speed - probably about 10-20 mph - from a private drive, but it was fast enough to toss me up.

[Dave2002]

Which is why I'm rarely here..........

I think you are mistaking correlation for causality.

[Bryn]

Impressive tooling up. How often is the air you breathe being changed? And are you getting enough Vitamin D?

I'm on prescribed Accrete D3 (including 20 micrograms Vit D) per day to ward against osteopenia. I only wear a mask in shops, public transport, gigs and the like. I avoid venues with low ceilings. When taking daily exercise in the local woodland, of which there is a copious supply, the air change presents no problem. I reside alone in a well-ventilated house. I do not dispose of the masks after each use but hang them out to air, in good sunlight when possible, for a few days before re-use, thus effectively deactivating any pathogens in moisture they may have trapped. With the FFP2 NR masks working out at around the same price as locally purchased simple surgical masks, it seems daft not to go for the higher level of filtration (circa 94% particle efficiency). Rather less protective against aerosols-borne pathogens, of course.

[Dave2002]

I'm on prescribed Accrete D3 (including 20 micrograms Vit D) per day to ward against osteopenia. I only wear a mask in shops, public transport, gigs and the like. I avoid venues with low ceilings. When taking daily exercise in the local woodland, of which there is a copious supply, the air change presents no problem. I reside alone in a well-ventilated house. I do not dispose of the masks after each use but hang them out to air, in good sunlight when possible, for a few days before re-use, thus effectively deactivating any pathogens in moisture they may have trapped. With the FFP2 NR masks working out at around the same price as locally purchased simple surgical masks, it seems daft to to go for the higher level of filtration (circa 94% particle efficiency). Rather less protective against aerosols-borne pathogens, of course.

I am fairly sure that many people re-use masks, as indeed we sometimes do. However we do follow - or try to - any guidelines which have been seen as appropriate, such as wearing masks in concerts and on public transport. It may be unnecessary, but for the time being there is evidence that such caution may not be completely unreasonable.

There will come a time - I hope fairly soon - that such caution can be dispensed with, but I know many people who are concerned that there are still difficulties to be faced.

[Frances_iom]

... it seems daft to to go for the higher level of filtration (circa 94% particle efficiency). Rather less protective against aerosols-borne pathogens, of course.

it probably is daft as protection against aerosols is considerably lower but as mask wearing is to convince the timid and previous scared back onto the streets and get spending, even wearing the near totally useless fancy masks sold at silly prices will do that task.

[DracoM]

<< I am fairly sure that many people re-use masks, >>

Usually dunk mine in boiling water after use.