Re-join the EU?

[Andrew]

It doesn't show a large groundswell of support at that time, no; but then the downside of the Brexit hadn't properly emerged. The Lib Dem position was at least democratic: they put to the electorate what they would do and the electorate could have voted for it. If that had been supported by the majority, it would have been as valid as the referendum, wouldn't it?

Yes, the Liberal Democratic line in the 2019 election might be described as "honest" in the sense that they DID clearly state what they stood for, although I feel they lost a considerable amount of support because they didn't appear to honour the democratic decision of the referendum only 4 years before. Democracy is a precious flower, and needs to be nurtured; it also isn't a "selective" principle, either.

[french frank]

Democracy is a precious flower, and needs to be nurtured; it also isn't a "selective" principle, either.

But circumstances alter cases. Democracy allows for people to think again, and change their minds. It's not democracy to say: "Sorry , chums, too bad. You voted for it and you've got to have it." It is not democracy to say the 2016 referendum was the final, the only, opportunity you had to make a decision. That surely applies without any need to go into the rights and wrongs of the whole process of carrying out the referendum.

[LHC]

I suspect there is a considerable degree of 'wishful thinking' in the proposition that there would be a substantial majority in favour of rejoining the EU.

As others have pointed out, in 2019, the Tories won a significant majority by standing on a platform of 'get Brexit done', while the only party openly campaigning to rejoin was trounced at the polls.

While the effects of Brexit are yet to be fully experienced, and have to an extent been masked by Covid, the initial success of the UK's vaccine roll out in comparison to the EU's botched vaccination procurement programme (at least in the early stages) also convinced quite a few people that we might actually be better off outside the clutches of the EU's bureaucracy.

I can't find the them at present, but I recall seeing some opinion polls earlier this year which suggested that, while there was now a small majority for remain if the 2016 Brexit referendum was re-run today (around 51:49 IIRC), significantly fewer people said they would vote to rejoin the EU.

So while there is a small, and possibly growing, majority of people who recognise that Brexit was a very bad idea, that does not mean that there is any real enthusiasm for rejoining the EU anytime soon.

I also think that the process of leaving the EU has been so acrimonious on both sides, that it would be very difficult for us to rejoin, even if we wanted to.

[french frank]

LHC, I agree with all you say. "Circumstances alter cases" for Remainers too. We are out and life goes on. I doubt there will be any great shift in public opinion soon, and until there is the question of rejoining doesn't arise. If Remainers have a task ahead it's in seeking to change public opinion - a longer term objective than agitating to rejoin or forcing another referendum.

The underlying reasons for supporting membership haven't changed, and temporary issues like referendums and Covid absolutely don't change those arguments. You either see them as 'truth' or you don't. It's fundamental to democracy to lay out the facts and allow people to judge. I don't think the Remain side is in a good position to lay out the facts at the moment.

[Katzelmacher]

Many people including some of our friends have taken take the position that now Brexit has happened, we just have to sit back and accept it.

No point in making a fuss.


I cannot agree with that supine attitude. There must be, should be, a huge election-winning majority of people who have experienced the disaster of leaving Europe, and who wish to re-join as soon as possible. Is this just Cloud Cuckoo Land? I don't think so.

The Lib Dems are suffering a very disappointingly low profile at the moment. There must be many who despair of the extremes of both Conservative and Labour politicians.The LibDems' path to recovery (which would avoid any extremes of Left or Right) may well involve fielding a leader with the Oomph (different Ooomph, obviously) of Nigel Farage who will slam both Boris and Keir Starmer, deal with the right-wing press and enthuse our citizens to become Europeans again.

Maybe as a Host, I should steer clear of Party Political posts. So any other ideas (e.g. a dedicated new party)..... anyone?

Why do people who dislike Boris Johnson persist in helping him by using his ‘brand name’?

[Katzelmacher]

My own view is that those who are appalled by Brexit and the massive affront to civilised values that it represents, should devote their energies to ensuring the break-up of the so-called ‘united’ kingdom, and allowing Scotland to escape the yoke of southern tyranny. It would have a long journey to gaining EU membership, but it’s been clear for a long time that Scottish voters don’t want what english voters seem to want.

The obsolescence of the union flag would be highly demoralising for quitters.

[Katzelmacher]

Also, as I understand it, the Liberal Democrats now accept Brexit and don’t propose reversing it. So if you’re an english voter, you have to choose between three brexity main parties.

[Flay]

Apologies for my use of the word "thankfully' when referring to deceased older Brexit voters. However it is true that a higher proportion of older voters voted for Brexit:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

They have pretty much deprived the young from living, learning and loving in the EU, as well as screwing up our economy.

Mind you they were fed lies and bombarded with dishonest misleading propaganda.

Perhaps I should return to lurking...
.

[burning dog]

Apologies for my use of the word "thankfully' when referring to deceased older Brexit voters. However it is true that a higher proportion of older voters voted for Brexit:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

They have pretty much deprived the young from living, learning and loving in the EU, as well as screwing up our economy.

Mind you they were fed lies and bombarded with dishonest misleading propaganda.

Perhaps I should return to lurking...
.

The very oldest voters ie. the ones who have died/will die first voted about 50-50 in the Brexit referendum., Many of those who have memoires of wartime and immediate aftermath view the the EU more favourably then the boomers.

https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/long-reads/brexit-boris-johnson-nigel-farage-baby-boomers-vote-leave-a9150416.html

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2019/03/21/not-all-the-over-65s-are-in-favour-of-brexit-britains-wartime-generation-are-almost-as-pro-eu-as-millennials/#comments

http://whs-blogs.co.uk/teaching/extent-second-world-war-influence-brexit-vote/

[oddoneout]

Apologies for my use of the word "thankfully' when referring to deceased older Brexit voters. However it is true that a higher proportion of older voters voted for Brexit:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

They have pretty much deprived the young from living, learning and loving in the EU, as well as screwing up our economy.

Mind you they were fed lies and bombarded with dishonest misleading propaganda.
Perhaps I should return to lurking...
.

And thanks to the general ignorance of far too many MPs about the EU (in common with their constituents) not enough of them would have recognised the lies and misleading narrative either. That ignorance persists and is now compounded by ignorance of how the UK functions in terms of trade and business,a general level of gross incompetence and, I believe a refusal to recognise that governing independently is very different from doing so as part of a bigger organisation with which the heavy lifting was shared. For instance it was known a long time ago that there were only a handful of people in the UK who had experience or skills in the trade deal field for instance - because it wasn't necessary as part of the collective bargaining of the EU, where the UK input was welcome and valued as I understand it.
Regardless of any other considerations about whether rejoining is possible/desirable there is the first hurdle, which I think has already been indicated by the EU side, which is that this country has to get its act together before any discussion on the matter can even begin. Having a halfway competently run country would go a long way to calming both sides of the issue; the current floundering and disintegration on top of the pre-existing problems of basic services being run-down to the point of not functioning for far too many people does not make for tolerance and satisfaction with life. Covid has held much of it at bay for now but the more some sort of normality is restored the more the chasms become apparent.

[DracoM]

<< Many people including some of our friends have taken take the position that now Brexit has happened, we just have to sit back and accept it.
No point in making a fuss.
I cannot agree with that supine attitude. There must be, should be, a huge election-winning majority of people who have experienced the disaster of leaving Europe, and who wish to re-join as soon as possible. Is this just Cloud Cuckoo Land? I don't think so. >>

Could not agree more.
Talk to farmers up round here - voted Leave, but now................?? REAL anxiety and despair.

[Old Grumpy]

<< Many people including some of our friends have taken take the position that now Brexit has happened, we just have to sit back and accept it.
No point in making a fuss.
I cannot agree with that supine attitude. There must be, should be, a huge election-winning majority of people who have experienced the disaster of leaving Europe, and who wish to re-join as soon as possible. Is this just Cloud Cuckoo Land? I don't think so. >>

Could not agree more.
Talk to farmers up round here - voted Leave, but now................?? REAL anxiety and despair.

Well, farmers should know...


... what you sow, you reap

[french frank]

Also, as I understand it, the Liberal Democrats now accept Brexit and don’t propose reversing it. So if you’re an english voter, you have to choose between three brexity main parties.

That's quite a distortion of the Lib Dem position! The last annual conference voted on rejoining the EU as a 'longer term objective', when circumstances permitted it. That did, however, reject the previous policy of actively attempting to rejoin without first getting the approval of the public - 'unilaterally', as Andrew called it earlier, or to immediately campaign to rejoin. I think it would be inaccurate to call it a 'brexity' party. A new party dedicated to such campaigning is a one-issue party. It has the luxury to need no other policies on anything; but it won't get anywhere.

Whereas I would have a secret satisfaction if Scotland were to leave the UK and Northern Ireland under a SinnFein majority were to unite with the Republic (satisfaction in that Brexit was the catalyst, so I could say, "Now look what you've done!"), it would go against my general 'unionist' principles. But I also think the UK is a far less democratic and fair union than the EU itself. If 2 million Slovenians can be a separate nation in the EU, why shouldn't 3 million Welsh - to say nothing of the 5.5 million Scots?

Btw: "As of June, 2021, 44 percent of people in Great Britain thought that it was wrong to leave the European Union, compared with 43 percent who thought it was the right decision." That's a narrower majority pro EU than before the referendum. Any failed attempt to rejoin would simply put the situation further back - but that's just my own judgment.

[mikealdren]

Yes, the Liberal Democratic line in the 2019 election might be described as "honest" in the sense that they DID clearly state what they stood for, although I feel they lost a considerable amount of support because they didn't appear to honour the democratic decision of the referendum only 4 years before. Democracy is a precious flower, and needs to be nurtured; it also isn't a "selective" principle, either.

And of course it was the Lib Dems who were the first party to push for a vote on Brexit, careful what you wish for.....

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yes, the Liberal Democratic line in the 2019 election might be described as "honest" in the sense that they DID clearly state what they stood for, although I feel they lost a considerable amount of support because they didn't appear to honour the democratic decision of the referendum only 4 years before. Democracy is a precious flower, and needs to be nurtured; it also isn't a "selective" principle, either.

Democracy is fluid. People change their minds. And many people I know have done.
4 years is roughly the average time between general elections, and we all know how things can change there.