Relationships

[Dave2002]

I think we are sticking to the brief in discussing relationships! Rescue cats and rescue dogs do have something in common in how they behave, based on the way they've been treated. They need to be domesticated, reassured, even cosseted.

But one of the most fundamental differences between dog ownership and cat ownership - which must effect the relationship - is that dog owners are held legally responsible for the way their dog behaves in public. They must be kept 'under control' and a farmer may be entitled to shoot a dog worrying his sheep. In an urban situation where every other house has a cat, it's not even possible to tell which overnight visitor, with a 'right to roam', scratched up your seedlings and left its poo there. And if you attempt to deter them in a way that causes them harm, you can be sued as they are 'protected animals'. That is bound to make dog owners and cat owners have different attitudes towards their pets.

There can be a genuine two-way bond between owners/masters and their dogs (tales like Greyfriars Bobby, and this year Boncuk the Turkish dog are legendary). As a child in the country, I had a dog (as in, I was his main companion as there were no other children of my age in the area) but in reality he was a family dog (a 3-generation family of 6) and I don't think the dog recognised a 'leader'. Anyone who would fondle his ears or shake his paw when he offered it (which tiresomely he would not stop doing) and he was friend for life.

Cats can be a real pain - and are responsible for killing a lot of birds. OK some birds are "common or garden" birds, and one might suggest that the cats have as much right to life as the birds do - "tooth and claw" stuff.

When considering potential housing developments the damage that domestic pets can do to protected species is sometimes overlooked - though can be highlighted if people are aware of the issues. Dogs can be a nuisance, but they don't normally roam free. Cats can cover a lot of ground over a wide area, and wreak havoc within that space and wipe out small pockets of unusual and otherwise "protected" birds.

[Pabmusic]

...There can be a genuine two-way bond between owners/masters and their dogs (tales like Greyfriars Bobby, and this year Boncuk the Turkish dog are legendary). As a child in the country, I had a dog (as in, I was his main companion as there were no other children of my age in the area) but in reality he was a family dog (a 3-generation family of 6) and I don't think the dog recognised a 'leader'. Anyone who would fondle his ears or shake his paw when he offered it (which tiresomely he would not stop doing) and he was friend for life.

There are genetic differences between dogs and cats. No species of Felidae that I'm aware of lives or hunts in packs - except maybe hyenas - which are regarded as cat-like but in truth are more of a transitional species between Felidae and Canidae.

Whereas dogs are from a species (Canis lupus) that was already a social species before domestication. It seems that domestic dogs originated from those wolves forward enough to approach human settlements - I don't think that anything so 'bold' ever applied to cats. The cat-human relationship seems to be more of the feline recognising warmth/safety, while the dog/human is different. One little thing is that domestic dogs (C. lupus familiaris) will move their eyes while keeping their heads still - such as by looking up at food on the table. They don't do that with other dogs, only humans. And apparently other mammals do nothing like it except for some primates, including all apes.

In other words, dogs integrated more easily because they were already predisposed to do so.

[Richard Barrett]

No species of Felidae that I'm aware of lives or hunts in packs

Lions and cheetahs are the exceptions here.

[french frank]

In other words, dogs integrated more easily because they were already predisposed to do so.

Yes, I mentioned that as an explanation in Msg 24 Lions hunt in packs: the pride. I wonder why they differ - perhaps because it's mainly only large prey available to them. The feral cats of Cyprus live in colonies but I don't suppose they need to hunt in packs as they don't take on large prey. Since wolves hunt in packs, I was wondering about foxes, but I suppose like cats they don't need any help with chickens etc.

It doesn't surprise that in their relationship with humans dogs and cats show different behaviour, though I do think dogs have developed a more 'human-like' intelligence through their longer association with man. In a domestic situation cats don't even seem to tolerate other cats.

[Pabmusic]

Lions and cheetahs are the exceptions here.

Of course - silly me.

[Bryn]

Lions and cheetahs are the exceptions here.

Though in cheetahs it seems only to be juvenile males which sometimes coordinate their stalking and prey-taking.

[Pabmusic]

Yes, I mentioned that as an explanation in Msg 24 ...

So you did: I've read it now.

[french frank]

So you did: I've read it now.

And further on dogs' relationships with humans: do dogs "love" their owners (well, sometimes!) in the same way that "we" (humans) love our dogs? Research has been done by psychologists who have found that (I need to watch this film again, near the end, to remember the precise details) dogs create the same hormone associated with 'love' as humans .

I wasn't too sure about the dog asking the human to 'please open the box for me because I can't do it': it happened a bit too quickly, and I'd guess these scientists are all dog-lovers! But they might have trialled it successfully before.

[jayne lee wilson]

And further on dogs' relationships with humans: do dogs "love" their owners (well, sometimes!) in the same way that "we" (humans) love our dogs? Research has been done by psychologists who have found that (I need to watch this film again, near the end, to remember the precise details) dogs create the same hormone associated with 'love' as humans .

I wasn't too sure about the dog asking the human to 'please open the box for me because I can't do it': it happened a bit too quickly, and I'd guess these scientists are all dog-lovers! But they might have trialled it successfully before.

On Dogs and Owners, and the questionable bond.....(and Dogs hunting wild animals)...

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2280859-your-dog-may-not-like-you-as-much-as-you-think-it-does/

NS has shown some years ago that the studies on Cats' depletions of wild animals (most Cats take more rodents than birds) were seriously flawed in their methodology; in fact, in my garden there are so many Mice, Shrews and other species that the Cats may be exercising a useful form of control in a recurrently renewing population. Case-by-case as ever, but despite feeding wild birds through multiple feeding stations (carefully placed!) I've rarely had a Cat that takes birds with any kind of regularity. It is always about habitat, food supply and population, so this will vary according to human/Cat density.

(Mice can be annoying - they climb trees and cluster inside the feeders at night...remarkably intelligent little creatures who can come to recognise you, if they come into the storage room for the birds each night....)

AS for Cats somehow having less of a bond with their human companions - anyone who has lived with Cats for a long time knows this is profoundly untrue; on every level, whether with well-domesticated companions or desperate strays. But preconceptions and prejudices, stereotypes of animal and human psychology, will always die hard.

Every long-term feline friend I ever had - when their time came, they died in my arms.

****
The famous feral Cats of such as Istanbul and Cyprus are very interesting, as many of them do form relationships with the local population, many of whom (especially in Istanbul, as the film Kedi recently recounted) feed them and help with veterinary care where they can. "TNR" - trap-neuter-return, can be very useful here.

[french frank]

On Dogs and Owners, and the questionable bond.....(and Dogs hunting wild animals)...
https://www.newscientist.com/article...think-it-does/

Subscription only?

NS has shown some years ago that the studies on Cats' depletions of wild animals (most Cats take more rodents than birds) were seriously flawed in their methodology

Yes, I have read that this has been overestimated.** Nevertheless, I do associate the large domestic cat population with the almost total absence of small garden birds in the immediate vicinity, even though they can be heard further away. I have now set up two cat deterrents (approved by the RSPB) to keep them away from my garden and from fouling in the borders and paths. I have since spotted two only, both beating hasty retreats. It sounds as if you have a much bigger estate than I have

AS for Cats somehow having less of a bond with their human companions - anyone who has lived with Cats for a long time knows this is profoundly untrue; on every level, whether with well-domesticated companions or desperate strays. But preconceptions and prejudices, stereotypes of animal and human psychology, will always die hard.

When you say 'less of a bond', it's not clear what you're comparing them with, or whether you are speaking of your experience or scientific findings As you say, "But preconceptions and prejudices, stereotypes of animal and human psychology, will always die hard." I do agree with that.

** The RSPB don't blame cats for garden bird depletion which is what you're talking about, but they do say, "The most recent figures of how many creatures are killed by cats are from the Mammal Society. They estimate that cats in the UK catch up to 100 million prey items over spring and summer, of which 27 million are birds.

This is the number of prey items which were known to have been caught. We don't know how many more the cats caught, but didn't bring home, or how many escaped but subsequently died."

DISCLAIMER: I have had a cat and a dog in the very distant past, but don't currently own either

[jayne lee wilson]

The RSPB article makes clear that this is an estimate - from the very Mammal Society taken to task by New Scientist. If you read the RSPB page through, pay very close attention to the part under "no scientific evidence". That is precisely the problem with tabloidesque headlines, panics and assumptions....

But I've observed all of these things at close hand here for many years, in a very varied wild habitat. I never see much evidence of mammalian or bird populations decreasing. They fluctuate according to climate, food supply vegetation change etc.(**)
I usually spend several weeks of the year accommodating mice within the house until I can help them back out, by catching them (manually, boxes etc) or leaving doors open...late at night, I can hear them munching on the cat biscuits. Amazing little animals.
(I'm more worried about Hedgehogs - but they seem to be holding up...).

Cats? They watch the mouse on the carpet, stop them running with a paw, sit back. The Mouse plays dead, the Cat gets bored and leaves; I put the mouse back outside when I can.....I've often seen similar mouse/cat behaviour in the garden (where I'm not needed).
Young Cats can be less knowing; they can damage the animal; not pleasant to see, or deal with. But they soon learn that any mouse is more fun alive than dead...the mice of course, like most underdogs, learn much more quickly....


"Less of a bond"? I was comparing them to the various comments about Dogs on this thread.

(**)
As in many areas, House Sparrows have been extinct locally for decades; a few weeks ago, I discovered a small colony of them at a farm less than a mile away (I heard the calls, and thought... surely not, and then....)....extraordinary, but.... go figure....

Perhaps they made friends with the horses....

[Serial_Apologist]

It sounds as if you have a much bigger estate than I have

Jayne's? - the World!

[jayne lee wilson]

New Scientist on Dogs - issue of 19/06/21. (Also: "fox breeding suggests that domestication boosts brains")
Special issue on "Consciousness" (the problem), including animals - 10 July.

[french frank]

But I've observed all of these things at close hand here for many years, in a very varied wild habitat. I never see much evidence of mammalian or bird populations decreasing.

I made that point. It was not about populations decreasing. I personally find it an unattractive attribute of cats that they catch wild birds at all and kill them even though - unlike their ancestors - they don't need to do so for food. Just call it my squeamishness! But I do think they scare birds off, and I'd prefer to have wild birds in my garden than other people's cats.

"Less of a bond"? I was comparing them to the various comments about Dogs on this thread.

Comparing them with the comments about dogs or comparing with any dog of your own?

[Serial_Apologist]

The RSPB article makes clear that this is an estimate - from the very Mammal Society taken to task by New Scientist. If you read the RSPB page through, pay very close attention to the part under "no scientific evidence". That is precisely the problem with tabloidesque headlines, panics and assumptions....

But I've observed all of these things at close hand here for many years, in a very varied wild habitat. I never see much evidence of mammalian or bird populations decreasing. They fluctuate according to climate, food supply vegetation change etc.(**)

Yes - changes in landscape usage and land management tacit - including paving over garden lawns, uses of herbicides and pesticides with their effects on insect populations and in turn bird populations being far more significant than cats' presence, surely. Suburbs can never supply the substitute refuge environment for agribusiness practices Monty Don and other TV personalities are urging us all to provide. Mice are doing fine - one thing that gets less mention is rats, though. One thing that puzzles me is the "selective" depletion of urban bird species, including house sparrows, as you mention, which were once the ubiquitous London species - "cockney sparrers" long before Barbara Windsor's time! Other species have made a truly welcome return from the countryside - woodpeckers, even the odd cuckoo - yet along with sparrows no one seems able to explain the almost ubiquitous depletion of song thrushes, which can't be down to woodland shrinkage, surely? Crows - the sleek carrion variety, often mistaken for rooks, less common around these parts - are everywhere around here, and are becoming much less wary about close proximity to people.