Relationships

[Serial_Apologist]

I made that point. It was not about populations decreasing. I personally find it an unattractive attribute of cats that they catch wild birds at all and kill them even though - unlike their ancestors - they don't need to do so for food. Just call it my squeamishness! But I do think they scare birds off, and I'd prefer to have wild birds in my garden than other people's cats.

I am sure you are right there to a degree. Before the arrival of a cat in our block of 14 flats and maisonettes, birds were greater frequenters of our good-sized garden. Since her arrival the two hanging bird feeders have often been left untouched... and I'm sure the population of slugs and snails has increased exponentially!

[jayne lee wilson]

I made that point. It was not about populations decreasing. I personally find it an unattractive attribute of cats that they catch wild birds at all and kill them even though - unlike their ancestors - they don't need to do so for food. Just call it my squeamishness! But I do think they scare birds off, and I'd prefer to have wild birds in my garden than other people's cats.



Comparing them with the comments about dogs or comparing with any dog of your own?

All of the above - comments about dogs, living with one many years ago, and often meeting neighbourhood dogs nearby and out near the woods (especially during lockdown...). Often a question of body language.

Domestic Cats don't often actually kill the birds they catch - usually, sadly, the birds (often young and less wary, or old and weak) die of shock at the point of capture; so you recover them, feather-perfect...I peer at them, spread their lovely wings and wonder.... place them under a large, densely undergrown evergreen.
Similarly to Orcas with baby humpback whales, much of this hunt-and-catch behaviour, often with a kill but without eating much of the catch, is about instinctive practice - keeping skills sharp for when you need to eat. So "unattractive attribute" as you use it here, is just another anthropomorphism.

Yes, birds keep away where Cats are numerous; wouldn't you? But that is entirely a human problem. Neighbourhood Cats, bird feeders, dense population of humans (with polarising sympathies)? You have a problem without an easy solution...

[Dave2002]

Yes, birds keep away where Cats are numerous; wouldn't you? But that is entirely a human problem. Neighbourhood Cats, bird feeders, dense population of humans (with polarising sympathies)? You have a problem without an easy solution...

NO!

Keep cats away where birds are sparse and in danger of at least local extinction.

We can do without more cats.

[jayne lee wilson]

NO!

Keep cats away where birds are sparse and in danger of at least local extinction.

We can do without more cats.

And your methodology - your practical, implemented approach (including precise surveys of such populations/possible extinctions), is?

****
BTW Song Thrushes - nothing to do with Cats here - they still sing and breed in the nearby woods; but long ago they were out-competed in the suburbs by the bolder, more aggressive and more adaptable Blackbirds. Long ago, I raised two Song Thushes from a nest dropped in the road by kids as I gave chase. One was killed, heartbreakingly by - a Miniature Poodle. Or rather, it died from shock when captured. Their general depletion, as with House Sparrows in some areas, remains somewhat mysterious.

The Blackbirds flourish here, all year round; shy now during their moult, there can be 20 on the open spaces (wild meadow, once a "lawn") at Winter Dawn (they get there at first light, before the Magpies, Ring Doves or Pheasants). Song Thrushes are a rare sight or sound in suburbs; Mistle Thrushes are more numerous, nesting and singing high in the Trees as the year begins....aggression and adaptability....

[Dave2002]

I have been involved in long and detailed planning consultations, and cats were identified as a major problem. Humans of course don't think that Mrs Tiddles - cuddly though she is - can wreak havoc over a wide area.

You might say "why get sentimental over birds?", but I think there's more of a case when there are so many cats - a few hundred wouldn't actually be missed - and yes - I' do think they look cute, and sometimes cuddle and stroke them - despite my allergies.

[jayne lee wilson]

I have been involved in long and detailed planning consultations, and cats were identified as a major problem. Humans of course don't think that Mrs Tiddles - cuddly though she is - can wreak havoc over a wide area.

You might say "why get sentimental over birds?", but I think there's more of a case when there are so many cats - a few hundred wouldn't actually be missed - and yes - I' do think they look cute, and sometimes cuddle and stroke them - despite my allergies.

My God..... did your consulting committee discuss, er, well, the er... the method of disposal....?
Or how their human companions might feel?

[Bryn]

My God..... did your consulting committee discuss, er, well, the er... the method of disposal....?
Or how their human companions might feel?

Shooting, as with badgers? When a similar committee at the then Trent Park site of Middlesex Poly wanted to get rid of the local ferral cats back in the 1980s, I had to point out to them that the cats would quikly be replaced by other top predators such as foxes. The proposed ferral cat cull did not go ahead. I have taken to consuming rather a lot oranges in order to spead their rind around my back garden. At least 4 cats from one neighbour and another from the other side regard my garden as their personal territory. 2 of the 4 make more use of my sun longer then I ever get a chance to. The other, Dougal, a mote recent resident, is more circumspect. Since the cats arrived, I get far, far fewer birds at the feeders, even those hanging from the eaves. I used to get up to 5 Greater Spotted Woodpeckers feeding on peanuts and sunflower seed at a time. I've not seen even one in the garden since the cat invasion. I hear them but they keep away from my garden now. Likewise the Greenfinches and Siskins, et al.

[Dave2002]

My God..... did your consulting committee discuss, er, well, the er... the method of disposal....?
Or how their human companions might feel?

I would personally try to dissuade people from having the wretched creatures - unless they felt really so inclined.

I'm not sure how this is dealt with elsewhere. We went to Italy a few years ago, and some quite nice small cats turned up - probably rather young, and eventually an older cat.
One day they didn't come. I suspect that the farmers in the area might not have been sentimental about "dealing with them" at all. As human beings we dispose of many animals, but most of us don't think about it. How do you think milk is produced? As yet there's no way to ensure that a cow will give birth to female offspring suitable for milk production.

[french frank]

I was speaking to my nephew this afternoon. They got a rescue cat, and indeed rescued it from being a frightened little thing that hid behind the settee and wouldn't come out for a couple of weeks. He has been restored to being a happy domestic pet (who does, however, tend to get into fights with other cats).

I mentioned dogs to my nephew and he said they might very well get a dog in the future but for the moment a dog would be "too much of a commitment". If cats were more of a commitment no doubt there would be fewer of them.

[jayne lee wilson]

I would personally try to dissuade people from having the wretched creatures - unless they felt really so inclined.

I'm not sure how this is dealt with elsewhere. We went to Italy a few years ago, and some quite nice small cats turned up - probably rather young, and eventually an older cat.
One day they didn't come. I suspect that the farmers in the area might not have been sentimental about "dealing with them" at all. As human beings we dispose of many animals, but most of us don't think about it. How do you think milk is produced? As yet there's no way to ensure that a cow will give birth to female offspring suitable for milk production.

Phew.....I won't even try to unpack all of that....

[jayne lee wilson]

I was speaking to my nephew this afternoon. They got a rescue cat, and indeed rescued it from being a frightened little thing that hid behind the settee and wouldn't come out for a couple of weeks. He has been restored to being a happy domestic pet (who does, however, tend to get into fights with other cats).

I mentioned dogs to my nephew and he said they might very well get a dog in the future but for the moment a dog would be "too much of a commitment". If cats were more of a commitment no doubt there would be fewer of them.

But what does "commitment" really mean there? Getting a dog when you already care for other animals is a bigger commitment in a very obvious sense...

The main difference between domestic Cats and Dogs is.....one of them needs taking for walks (**)....
Otherwise caring for a House-Cat is an equally demanding responsibility (or should be....)....

(**) The Present "Official" House-Kitty enjoys a late night, local avenue, freewheeling version of this but.... that's another story....

[french frank]

The main difference between domestic Cats and Dogs is.....one of them needs taking for walks....
Otherwise caring for a House-Cat is an equally demanding responsibility (or should be....)....

I wouldn't say that that was the 'main' difference'. It is necessary to train the dog so that you can trust it to behave properly with other dogs and with other people, that it doesn't bark all the time. When you take it for a walk every day it could take 30 mins upwards, and if the dog is let off the lead so that it can stretch its legs and work off some energy, that's exactly when it has to have had proper training: you have to be able to trust it not to get into fights with other dogs or growl and bark at people so that they are frightened of it. You have to watch it and pick up its poo and dispose of it.

All this as well as feeding it, seeing to its health needs, as you do with cats. If you have to go away, it's much easier to find a neighbour or family member to pop in and put down food for the cat.

[jayne lee wilson]

I wouldn't say that that was the 'main' difference'. It is necessary to train the dog so that you can trust it to behave properly with other dogs and with other people, that it doesn't bark all the time. When you take it for a walk every day it could take 30 mins upwards, and if the dog is let off the lead so that it can stretch its legs and work off some energy, that's exactly when it has to have had proper training: you have to be able to trust it not to get into fights with other dogs or growl and bark at people so that they are frightened of it. You have to watch it and pick up its poo and dispose of it.

All this as well as feeding it, seeing to its health needs, as you do with cats. If you have to go away, it's much easier to find a neighbour or family member to pop in and put down food for the cat.

Not always easy at all for the Cat, or the cat sitter......! If only you knew....

There are many responsibilities one has toward a cat, but very different from the familiar Canine catalogue you list (which training is necessary precisely because of the need for those walks or outings, beyond initial/familial socialising).....

I suspect only living with Cats a long time really gets you near that understanding......

[AuntDaisy]

I wouldn't say that that was the 'main' difference'. It is necessary to train the dog so that you can trust it to behave properly with other dogs and with other people, that it doesn't bark all the time. When you take it for a walk every day it could take 30 mins upwards, and if the dog is let off the lead so that it can stretch its legs and work off some energy, that's exactly when it has to have had proper training: you have to be able to trust it not to get into fights with other dogs or growl and bark at people so that they are frightened of it. You have to watch it and pick up its poo and dispose of it.

All this as well as feeding it, seeing to its health needs, as you do with cats. If you have to go away, it's much easier to find a neighbour or family member to pop in and put down food for the cat.

We have a rescue (mainly Parson Jack Russell) Terrier and you're right about the training - not that it's been completely successful, he's good with people but not other dogs & recall is interesting. The "dog" training classes also included us (although I'm almost a lost cause). You get used to having treats & poo bags in your pocket, much as with small children.
That said, he's great fun, especially round the garden (he has his own pea and tomato plants) & regularly helps with the watering.

[french frank]

We have a rescue (mainly Parson Jack Russell) Terrier and you're right about the training - not that it's been completely successful, he's good with people but not other dogs & recall is interesting. The "dog" training classes also included us (although I'm almost a lost cause). You get used to having treats & poo bags in your pocket, much as with small children.
That said, he's great fun, especially round the garden (he has his own pea and tomato plants) & regularly helps with the watering.

Fortunately, I'm all right for veg, thanks