Lib Dems

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

HOUSE RULES include the following:

"As the Politics and Current Affairs board has now been closed, political topics will be allowed only at the discretion of the Moderators. These should not relate to party politics. News items which relate to music or the arts may be discussed on an appropriate board (for example, Talking About Music or The General Arts). Ideas & Theory is available for political discussion on a more general level. Anything that amounts, formally or informally, to party political campaigning (for or against) is currently disallowed."

As this thread does relate to party politics, it's definitely on thin ice, but may continue for now, as the discussion remains reasonably civilised.

[Dave2002]

The locals were concerned about the HS2 railway line, which will go through the area like a thermic lance through warm custard! Maybe is will make the present government take a long hard look at the whole HS2 plan and either scale it back or re-think it some way.

HS2 is a factor, but the size of the upset suggests that it was not the only one. Similarly the possibility of planning regulations being “revised”. Not really possible to “prove” that these two factors taken together cost the Cons the seat, but I doubt it.

The current government will carry on with HS2 - a vanity project - because it’s incapable of admitting problems or of a need for revised projects. If the UK didn’t have many other problems to deal with then I would probably support a high speed rail network, but not necessarily along the routes proposed. I still wonder whether any analysis based on minimum cost spanning trees, or even better, Steiner trees, was carried out when trying to design the proposed railway lines.

[Frances_iom]

HS2 is a factor, but the size of the upset suggests that it was not the only one. Similarly the possibility of planning regulations being “revised”. ...

HS2 has probably gone beyond the economic point of cancellation - the use of a terminus station at Birmingham is just one of the many stupidities (as will be the cost saving at Euston that will stymie maximum use) - Rail magazine is probably the best point of informed info - the near term future is however how to get the DfT away from the driving seat and to get the Williams-Shapp's plan for reform accepted.

[ardcarp]

Maybe a 'host' shouldn't be skating on thin ice, but to me this rings very true:

"What you've got to realise, Chris, is that all the instincts of the working class are Tory. On race, patriotism, the Bomb, you name it. It's just that they happen to vote Labour. Murdoch understands that, which is why the Sun has been so successful."

[An anonymous quote to Chris Mullin.]

[Joseph K]

Maybe a 'host' shouldn't be skating on thin ice, but to me this rings very true:



[An anonymous quote to Chris Mullin.]

Where are you getting your info on the working class from, I wonder.

[kernelbogey]

Easy there, folks....

[kernelbogey]

John Bercow, the former Speaker of the Commons, has just joined the Labour party. In an interview in today's Observer he says

“I think what it [the byelection result] tells us is that there is very considerable distrust on the part of voters in the south of England of this government. I don’t accept the thesis that this was just an anti-HS2 vote. I think that is very convenient for the government, but it suffers from the disadvantage of being wrong. I think people in very large numbers are disappointed, in some cases disgusted, by what this government has done.”

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Re HS2, this was/is supported by the Conservatives, Labour and Lib-Dems, so if voters were swung by it, they were mistaken.

[muzzer]

Sounds like twaddle. The general population is quite some way to the left of most MPs, what Labour under Corbyn offered was very popular - scroll down this page to see that stats about how popular nationalising utilities and the railway is: https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.c...ours-2019.html ... it's just that the demonstrably heavily biased media https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...st-him-167704/ means people get rammed down their throats not to vote for Corbyn*. Many - most - young people may not have fallen for it, but many older people perhaps whose source of news is still through those mediums still successfully manufacturing consent like the BBC & Murdoch's empire, mean we can't have sanity in government. Personally I strongly resent the quote that struck you, French Frank - perhaps it struck you because you also resent it? - I am also confused about it stating that despite voting Labour the Working Class are otherwise apparently Tory. Sounds suspiciously like Blairite claptrap.

*See the level of cognitive dissonance - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7lsRbDKOXg

We can have reasoned debate, FF, but I've made these points several times before, it seems.

If Corbyn and his ilk were so good at ‘winning the argument’, as is so often protested in support of them, how come they were so spectacularly unsuccessful at winning the election?

Mullin is right. Labour never wins from the left.

[Joseph K]

If Corbyn and his ilk were so good at ‘winning the argument’, as is so often protested in support of them, how come they were so spectacularly unsuccessful at winning the election?

I answered that in the message of mine you quoted.

[LMcD]

Where are you getting your info on the working class from, I wonder.

I get most of mine at the bus stop and the rest at the supermarket check-out queue.
Our postman is commendably unforthcoming on the subject - our current 'hot topic' is whether it's weather for shorts.

[Dave2002]

Re HS2, this was/is supported by the Conservatives, Labour and Lib-Dems, so if voters were swung by it, they were mistaken.

Do you mean in recent GEs, or the most recent by-election? Many people living in the Chilterns were/are opposed to HS2 as they think it is environmentally damaging and economically imprudent. Finally there is virtually no benefit for them, as it won’t improve their own travel when it finally starts operating.

Some local residents also have family and friends living in the north, and think the money could be better spent on infrastructure and other projects in the more northerly parts of England.

[french frank]

In the last two general elections Labour under the "unelectable" Corbyn won 20.6% and 12.9% of the vote in Chesham & Amersham respectively, as opposed to 1.6% under the "electable" Starmer. I know we aren't supposed to get into partisan politics here, but these are just numbers. What can they possibly mean with regard to 'electability", I wonder.

That has been covered. Tactical voting. Labour did very little campaigning and the Lib Dems threw eveything into it. Davey has floated the idea that the reverse 'might' happen in Batley and Spen where the Tories are a strong second.

[Richard Barrett]

That has been covered. Tactical voting.

Presumably, though, in a constituency like that, there will also be extensive tactical voting in general elections, despite which Labour did come second in 2017. What I am getting at here is that Keir Starmer's leadership is having a negative effect on voters, whatever the "ghost of Corbyn" might be doing.

[french frank]

What I am getting at here is that Keir Starmer's leadership is having a negative effect on voters, whatever the "ghost of Corbyn" might be doing.

Reports from canvassers were that Corbyn also had a 'negative effect' on voters. The fact that Starmer is doing 'less well' than Corbyn doesn't mean that Corbyn did well. Or that given time, support and no 'smearing', 'negative briefing' &c, he would have won an election on the strength of his policies. Irritating though it may be, it takes a Blair to win elections - the one thing Chris Mullin did approve of, because he (Mullin) was a politician.