Lib Dems

[LMcD]

Weren't Shirley Williams and the SDP going to break the mould of British politics?

[french frank]

Weren't Shirley Williams and the SDP going to break the mould of British politics?

Yes, that's why I put the phrase in quotes. But some nuts are very hard to crack, to change the image, and the higher they get, the harder they fall where the Young Pretenders are concerned.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Weren't Shirley Williams and the SDP going to break the mould of British politics?

They did but not in the way they expected to. Rather than ever forming a government they split the anti -Conservative vote in a way very helpful to the Tories. The boot is now on the other foot. Interesting to hear from a journalist on Newsnight that on the stump in Chesham and Amersham the issue that came up as much as planning and HS2 was Brexit. A lot of left of centre Tories left the party ( or were deselected )and their supporters are still around wondering who to vote for and there are quite a lot of them,,,

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes, that's why I put the phrase in quotes. But some nuts are very hard to crack, to change the image, and the higher they get, the harder they fall where the Young Pretenders are concerned.

Someone (I was only half-awake at the time) remarked on Today this morning that Labour's vote would have been almost exactly the same in number as the party's membership in that area! I keep wondering, what has happened to all those enthusiastic young people radicalised into joining by Jeremy Corbyn.

[french frank]

I keep wondering, what has happened to all those enthusiastic young people radicalised into joining by Jeremy Corbyn.

Not many in Chesham and Amersham? But I do think that the scale of Labour's inglorious failure here was due to voters doing what parties, especially of the left, refuse to do: gang up against the ones they really do not want to see elected. Voters will do it in a byelection - I doubt that will be repeated in a GE.

[muzzer]

The ghost of Corbyn still haunts the Labour Party and it’s unelectable for the foreseeable future. I think it would be great if all the one nation tories deserted super populist Fat Alex and his Chums for a new super competent Lib Dem party. I don’t fancy their chances but I wish them the best. At least they ditched the ghastly Jo Swinson.

[Joseph K]

The ghost of Corbyn still haunts the Labour Party

In what way?

[muzzer]

Well, look at the rumpus over the deputy leader recently. And McLuskey flexing his muscles the other day. These people couldn’t run a bath.

[LMcD]

In what way?

The right way as far as the Tories are concerned, I would think.

[Joseph K]

Interesting that people need to invoke the ghost of the former leader. Presumably Sir Keith the Abstainer is devoid of such corporeality the ghost of the former leader is some how managing to assert an even greater presence!

[french frank]

Well, perhaps we could keep this as a reasoned debate in which there are differing views?

The new Prospect has an article by Chris Mullin, and I was struck by this paragraph:

"It is an abiding myth, especially among young idealistic Labour supporters, that the working class, given suitably inspiring leadership, is necessarily left-wing and internationalist. An acquaintance of mine … once advised me thus: "What you've got to realise, Chris, is that all the instincts of the working class are Tory. On race, patriotism, the Bomb, you name it. It's just that they happen to vote Labour. Murdoch understands that, which is why the Sun has been so successful."

[Joseph K]

Well, perhaps we could keep this as a reasoned debate in which there are differing views?

The new Prospect has an article by Chris Mullin, and I was struck by this paragraph:

"It is an abiding myth, especially among young idealistic Labour supporters, that the working class, given suitably inspiring leadership, is necessarily left-wing and internationalist. An acquaintance of mine … once advised me thus: "What you've got to realise, Chris, is that all the instincts of the working class are Tory. On race, patriotism, the Bomb, you name it. It's just that they happen to vote Labour. Murdoch understands that, which is why the Sun has been so successful."

Sounds like twaddle. The general population is quite some way to the left of most MPs, what Labour under Corbyn offered was very popular - scroll down this page to see that stats about how popular nationalising utilities and the railway is: https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.c...ours-2019.html ... it's just that the demonstrably heavily biased media https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...st-him-167704/ means people get rammed down their throats not to vote for Corbyn*. Many - most - young people may not have fallen for it, but many older people perhaps whose source of news is still through those mediums still successfully manufacturing consent like the BBC & Murdoch's empire, mean we can't have sanity in government. Personally I strongly resent the quote that struck you, French Frank - perhaps it struck you because you also resent it? - I am also confused about it stating that despite voting Labour the Working Class are otherwise apparently Tory. Sounds suspiciously like Blairite claptrap.

*See the level of cognitive dissonance - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7lsRbDKOXg

We can have reasoned debate, FF, but I've made these points several times before, it seems.

[french frank]

Sounds like twaddle.

Mullin speaks as having represented a 'red wall' constituency for 23 years, and he agrees. He also quoted William Rees-Mogg who once stood as Tory candidate in Chester-le-Streeet, then a Labour stronghold, who said that during the course of his election campaign he encountered some of the most right-wing people he'd ever met. Added to the point about the popularity of The Sun among the 'working class'. Longevity and experience behind those comments. [I'd humbly add my own experience of certain 'working class' wards in Bristol]

Personally I strongly resent the quote that struck you, French Frank - perhaps it struck you because you also resent it? - I am also confused about it stating that despite voting Labour the Working Class are otherwise apparently Tory. Sounds suspiciously like Blairite claptrap.

Mullin was hardly a Blairite, was he? A buddy of Tony Benn whose selection for the Sunderland constituency met with the disapproval of Kinnock who was then leader (so I read on Wikipedia).

We can have reasoned debate, FF, but I've made these points several times before, it seems.

I wasn't directing the remark at you ; I simply think that, for the purposes of 'reasoned debate', it's better not to be too, um, outspoken about individual politicians.

[Andrew]

The locals were concerned about the HS2 railway line, which will go through the area like a thermic lance through warm custard! Maybe is will make the present government take a long hard look at the whole HS2 plan and either scale it back or re-think it some way.

[Richard Barrett]

Sounds like twaddle.

In the last two general elections Labour under the "unelectable" Corbyn won 20.6% and 12.9% of the vote in Chesham & Amersham respectively, as opposed to 1.6% under the "electable" Starmer. I know we aren't supposed to get into partisan politics here, but these are just numbers. What can they possibly mean with regard to 'electability", I wonder.