Transparent wood

[Anastasius]

A better bet than getting "people" to give up - or even cut down significantly on - their beef consumption. But that won't stop the clearing of the Amazon basin for cattle ranching. Beef is money.

....

Everything is tied up with money somewhere along the line. Out of curiosity, if we got rid of all the beef cattle in this country then what would we do with the land as most of it is of no use for crops.

[oddoneout]

Everything is tied up with money somewhere along the line. Out of curiosity, if we got rid of all the beef cattle in this country then what would we do with the land as most of it is of no use for crops.

Rewilding - and also recreation? The first would help with the problems of flooding which are bad currently and going to get much worse.

[french frank]

Rewilding - and also recreation? The first would help with the problems of flooding which are bad currently and going to get much worse.

Also, I'd have thought a lot of cattle pasturage could support crops. Given that the island was once mainly ancient woodland, it would seem ideal for trees. Less so the sheep grazing uplands, at least in the short term. We may even get to the point where beef has to be rationed. Fish and fowl contribute less to climate change.

[oddoneout]

Also, I'd have thought a lot of cattle pasturage could support crops. Given that the island was once mainly ancient woodland, it would seem ideal for trees. Less so the sheep grazing uplands, at least in the short term. We may even get to the point where beef has to be rationed. Fish and fowl contribute less to climate change.

Maybe, but poultry production is doing a good job of destroying the River Wye which isn't helpful.

[Anastasius]

Also, I'd have thought a lot of cattle pasturage could support crops......

It's not that simple.

The importance of livestock grazing for wildlife conservationpublications.naturalengland.org.uk › file

7 Grazing livestock in the lowlands - Natural England ...publications.naturalengland.org.uk › file

Best way to prevent climate change is for humans to stop breeding like rabbits.

[french frank]

Maybe, but poultry production is doing a good job of destroying the River Wye which isn't helpful.

Yes, but that only shifts the problem from climate change. There is no necessity for all these free range poultry farms to be close to rivers. Less reason once the problem has been identified.

It's not that simple.

That again shifts the problem. The solution was not to expunge cattle and their grazing lands, merely to reduce them. The biggest problem lies in the vast cattle ranches, rather than in farm-sized pasturage. Or plants trees on x% the land, tend the other remaining y% as biodiverse habitat.

Best way to prevent climate change is for humans to stop breeding like rabbits.

Human beings have created the problem, so perhaps just let them become extinct … except …

[oddoneout]

Yes, but that only shifts the problem from climate change. There is no necessity for all these free range poultry farms to be close to rivers. Less reason once the problem has been identified.

That again shifts the problem. The solution was not to expunge cattle and their grazing lands, merely to reduce them. The biggest problem lies in the vast cattle ranches, rather than in farm-sized pasturage. Or plants trees on x% the land, tend the other remaining y% as biodiverse habitat.

Human beings have created the problem, so perhaps just let them become extinct … except …

Identifying the problem isn't the issue, the planning process is, since it allows the problem to continue.

This is the way forward? https://www.theguardian.com/environm...weeds-at-knepp Having produce and wildlife, and doing both in a way that is beneficial for both environment and humans. I do recognise that that means changing the approach to meat eating in terms of what (the deer population of this country is reaching unsustainable levels,due to lack of top predators, but culling and eating are largely stymied by public attitude) and how much - but that needs to happen anyway.

Trouble is those that might escape that fate are not the most deserving of preservation?

[Dave2002]

Human beings have created the problem, so perhaps just let them become extinct … except …

Seconded ..... except ....

[french frank]

Trouble is those that might escape that fate are not the most deserving of preservation?

Oh, no survivors in my scheme of things. Make Earth (as we imaginatively call our planet) completely unable to sustain human life - as we know it. Earth will survive, and some sort of animal life might even gradually evolve - given a few b/million years. We must try not to think too anthropocentrically.

[vinteuil]

Oh, no survivors in my scheme of things. Make Earth (as we imaginatively call our planet) completely unable to sustain human life - as we know it. Earth will survive, and some sort of animal life might even gradually evolve - given a few b/million years. We must try not to think too anthropocentrically.

... d'you know? I think humans (notwithstanding everything wrong about them) are still the most interesting things this universe has produced. I'm sure that there are supporters of sycamores, cockroaches, slime moulds = the things which will perdure - but such entities are nowhere near as much fun as human beans.

So I do not support fr: fr:'s plea for us not to 'think anthropocentrically'. I think we ought to think anthropocentrically - in fact we have no choice - and I wd say we shd do so even shd it be at the expense of any other part of our environment. Damn the pandas...

.

[french frank]

So I do not support fr: fr:'s plea for us not to 'think anthropocentrically'. .

Well, if you read what I said (and what you quoted ), I said 'we must try not to think too anthropocentrically'. So we can still spare a thought for pandas, and it is in our interests to think about broadleaf trees. I'm not sure that I've ever come across a cockroach (somewhat surprisingly, given that …). We should have a symbiotic relationship with nature since I don't believe that we can completely dominate, still less destroy, it.

[oddoneout]

... d'you know? I think humans (notwithstanding everything wrong about them) are still the most interesting things this universe has produced. I'm sure that there are supporters of sycamores, cockroaches, slime moulds = the things which will perdure - but such entities are nowhere near as much fun as human beans.

So I do not support fr: fr:'s plea for us not to 'think anthropocentrically'. I think we ought to think anthropocentrically - in fact we have no choice - and I wd say we shd do so even shd it be at the expense of any other part of our environment. Damn the pandas....

I think they are doing a pretty good job of that themselves. I've long felt there is a certain irony in it becoming the symbol of the WWF and what "everyone" thinks of in terms of saving wildlife, since it's decided for some reason I've never seen explained, to commit evolutionary suicide.There's no question that human pressures make their survival precarious but making the change from an omnivorous or carnivorous diet to a very limited vegetarian one, for which their teeth and gut are not best designed, one a long time ago didn't put them in the best place to cope.

[Anastasius]

Identifying the problem isn't the issue, the planning process is, since it allows the problem to continue.

This is the way forward? https://www.theguardian.com/environm...weeds-at-knepp Having produce and wildlife, and doing both in a way that is beneficial for both environment and humans. I do recognise that that means changing the approach to meat eating in terms of what (the deer population of this country is reaching unsustainable levels,due to lack of top predators, but culling and eating are largely stymied by public attitude) and how much - but that needs to happen anyway.

Trouble is those that might escape that fate are not the most deserving of preservation?

Re deer culling. You're spot on. I'm doing my bit. My freezers are full and I donate other carcasses to the local village. There's talk about re-introducing the lynx into Kielder but, of course, the armchair-disgruntled of Tunbridge are up in arms.

[oddoneout]

Best way to prevent climate change is for humans to stop breeding like rabbits.

This might help? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...human-survival

For some reason I don't regard this news as wholly negative...

[Dave2002]

This might help? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...human-survival

For some reason I don't regard this news as wholly negative...

It could indeed be a good step towards much longer term survival.

In wild animals unregulated breeding (lack of top predators) leads to problems, and humans intervene by carrying out culls. Reducing fertility of both males and females in humans would be more humane then the cull alternative I think.

In the case of deer it seems to be considered unfair and cruel not to put them out of their "misery" if there are too many, or specific individuals are not strong enough to survive, which leads to problems with individuals not getting enough food due to shortages etc.