Why do we even allow people like this to "own" land in the UK?

[Dave2002]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-56075528

[Frances_iom]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-56075528

MONEY (& lots of it) - I assume your question was rhetorical - the Middle east is full of many such who can only be described as sick in mind - recall that one ruler has an arch critic dismembered in an embassy - in my opinion I look at the common feature and that is religion - highly patriarchal in which slavery is still tolerated and women occupy a lower status - such leaders are given support by those who are beneficiaries of his largesse and that includes the City of London and the majority it seems of our politicians.

[Serial_Apologist]

MONEY (& lots of it) - I assume your question was rhetorical - the Middle east is full of many such who can only be described as sick in mind - recall that one ruler has an arch critic dismembered in an embassy - in my opinion I look at the common feature and that is religion - highly patriarchal in which slavery is still tolerated and women occupy a lower status - such leaders are given support by those who are beneficiaries of his largesse and that includes the City of London and the majority it seems of our politicians.

[eighthobstruction]

....Nasty man....hobnobed world wide....I throw my shoes at him....

[kernelbogey]

<shoe emoticom>

[french frank]

I look at the common feature and that is religion - highly patriarchal in which slavery is still tolerated and women occupy a lower status

Is 'religion' merely the proximate cause? So much must depend on the individual: character, psychology, personal cultural legacy, 'nurture', politics. Whether Islam, Judaism, Christianity it is, first and foremost, individuals who should be held accountable for their actions. Like MbS (Mohammed bin Salman, for those who dislike abbreviations), Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum has too much money, too much absolute power and too much influence over the lives of others. For how he misuses them, he is accountable, and should be ostracised for a start. Blaming Islam dissipates the chances of remedy in any given situation.

PS Add my shoes.

[Richard Barrett]

Blaming Islam dissipates the chances of remedy in any given situation.

Quite. Actually when I saw the title of the thread I immediately assumed that the "people" in question were the British royal family... OK, they aren't known for cruelty in their present incarnations, but when one starts asking how they acquired their "property" originally, some of the answers are pretty shocking.

[french frank]

Quite. Actually when I saw the title of the thread I immediately assumed that the "people" in question were the British royal family... OK, they aren't known for cruelty in their present incarnations, but when one starts asking how they acquired their "property" originally, some of the answers are pretty shocking.

And fair enough to make a comparison. But isn't there a similar equation to be made - that the problem lies most immediately with the harmful misuse of power/influence rather than, for instance, with the system? I included the word 'harmful' bearing in mind a recent story that did, apparently, touch Our Own Dear Queen. Focusing on individual examples of abuse (of power/money) does, shamefully , make me more tolerant of institutions such as the monarchy or the House of Lords. (But can't stand some of the silly costumes and traditions like the Black Rod doing what ever it is they do).

[Frances_iom]

Fine but my opinion is that Islam as currently practised in larges areas of the world is indeed malign - Pakistani mobs + blasphemy courts?, the vast amount of corruption from Afghanistan through to Nigeria?. Maybe I missed the howls of condemnation aimed from the UK mosques over MbS's method of taking out critics or maybe the 'keeper of the holy places' was merely doing a bit of spring cleaning.

[Bryn]

Fine but my opinion is that Islam as currently practised in larges areas of the world is indeed malign - Pakistani mobs + blasphemy courts?, the vast amount of corruption from Afghanistan through to Nigeria?. Maybe I missed the howls of condemnation aimed from the UK mosques over MbS's method of taking out critics or maybe the 'keeper of the holy palces' was merely doing a bit of spring cleaning.

So something in common with the other two main Abrahamic religions over the centuries.

[french frank]

Fine but my opinion is that Islam as currently practised in larges areas of the world is indeed malign - Pakistani mobs + blasphemy courts?, the vast amount of corruption from Afghanistan through to Nigeria?. Maybe I missed the howls of condemnation aimed from the UK mosques over MbS's method of taking out critics or maybe the 'keeper of the holy palces' was merely doing a bit of spring cleaning.

I don't disagree with that. But my point was that if the reaction is 'First destroy (reform or whatever) Islam, because that's at the root of it all', it will be a very long time before you rid the world the malign influences wherever they are found. If MbS had been forcibly held to account by a united international community, and consequences felt in Saudi Arabia at least, that might have begun to shift things in the right direction.

Public howls of condemnation? Unlikely. Who is MbS anyway? How does that concern us?

[eighthobstruction]

....strange....seems to be a non story on Alja Zeera ....<cough ahem>

[Dave2002]

MONEY (& lots of it) - I assume your question was rhetorical - the Middle east is full of many such who can only be described as sick in mind - recall that one ruler has an arch critic dismembered in an embassy - in my opinion I look at the common feature and that is religion - highly patriarchal in which slavery is still tolerated and women occupy a lower status - such leaders are given support by those who are beneficiaries of his largesse and that includes the City of London and the majority it seems of our politicians.

I am not sure that the common feature is religion. I see no reason why we in the UK should support leaders who behave in that way at all. If the claim really is that there is someone who is seriously ill, then perhaps she should be allowed out to be given treatment in parts of the world where there may be some very good treatment.

Presumably the largesse which you call it is in fact due to oil money, which I seem to think must come indirectly from the collective use of oil in many countries around the world. I still don't see why people who misuse their power should be allowed to own property in the UK. I'll leave it there for the moment.

[Serial_Apologist]

And fair enough to make a comparison. But isn't there a similar equation to be made - that the problem lies most immediately with the harmful misuse of power/influence rather than, for instance, with the system?

Which - as you will have guessed - is where we disagree.

The thing about looking at unresolved social and historical... conundrums... systemically rather than via characters and characterisations is that if enough evidence and wisdom can be assembled to garner solutions, then who is standing in the way? If looked at sufficiently convincingly to people in need of persuading from the perspective of exerted unequal power, then the question of blame can be planted where it originates and self-perpetuates, called to account and then dismantled. I always think of that wonderful 70s cartoon in Socialist Worker depicting a French aristocrat on the point of being guillotined, shouting out to the bawling crowd: "You'll never manage without me, you know!" If the ruling classes consider themselves so divinely endowed to lead the rest of humankind that they deserve the privilege that goes with the power, then they can do the ultimate philanthropic thing of putting their gifts and qualities at the service of everyone, and possibly gain another kind of self-respect more enriching than financial and political exclusivity in the process.

[Frances_iom]

...If the ruling classes consider themselves so divinely endowed to lead the rest of humankind that they deserve the privilege that goes with the power, then they can do the ultimate philanthropic thing of putting their gifts and qualities at the service of everyone, and possibly gain another kind of self-respect more enriching than financial and political exclusivity in the process.

Your skill in sarcasm deserves respect - of course they won't except for a very few - the key thing is to establish education by which those who bring up the young can point out that the rulers' sh1t smells just as much as that of the common folk - ask yourself why female education is so hard to get in most Moslem countries (Afghanistan is about to step back 50 years in near future in this respect) - tho even with near a century of such education in Britain the bully boys from Eton still manage to land the plum jobs.