Wood burners - and open fires

[Anastasius]

They can be an absolute nightmare to deal with when it comes to things like having to sort out a relative's need to move, or settle the estate on death. My mother's move from such an apartment to a care home proved very costly in terms of share of sinking fund, approval to sell from the leaseholder and management company etc. Doubly annoying as both the solicitor and estate agent had handled dozens of such sales in that building and didn't think to inform us in advance what the issues were, which would have reduced some of the costs, although possibly delayed things somewhat. All sorts of costs and limitations come into play and can result in relatives having to pay ongoing costs for lengthy periods. In some cases they are effectively unsellable. That will get worse I think as fewer people either want or can afford to take them on. There are such flats in popular seaside towns in this neck of the woods that have been on the books for 12 months plus, sometimes more if they've been to more than one agent.

OK..can we have a reality check, please.

1) When anyone buys one of these retirement flats, the terms and conditions, the exit clauses etc are clearly laid out in the contract and lease. So saying that 'it's a nightmare' just doesn't cut it. Caveat emptor.

2) "Doubly annoying as both the solicitor and estate agent had handled dozens of such sales in that building and didn't think to inform us in advance what the issues were, which would have reduced some of the costs," How? Please can you explain why ? What has them 'selling dozens of such sales" affect the issues ? It's there...in black and white in your lease.

No, they are not unsellable. There are many, many other factors. Location, for one.

I don't agree that fewer and fewer people can afford them. The demographics aren't there. You will always have an elderly person - widow or widower - living in a large house that will fetch a good price on the open market.

Now a confession...I sincerely hope that what I've written is true for I am in the same boat. Our mother bought a retirement flat in a block owned by Kingsdale - take a look at their accounts and interlocking companies - they make the Cayman Islands look like Enid Blyton. At the time she bought it, there was a waiting list. Maybe it was the demographics...maybe the retirement flat model is doomed to failure...but also maybe in certain areas. For example, who the hell wold want to live in Purley ? Anyway, she became more infirm and eventually moved into a care home and we put her flat up for sale. That was a long time ago. Because of the lease, my sister and I are still shelling out (or rather the proceeds of the sale of the property) over £600 a month. We nearly completed over a year ago. Four times. The same bastard of a buyer trying to buy the house of the lady who wanted to buy our mothers' flat. Have you any idea of the mental trauma. The build-up over the week as completion on Tuesday approaches. The Monday...he's not got the money together... Next week....he's gone to Egypt to get funds..Next week..not got the money yet. His name is Basyouni. Bastard. If he comes trying to buy your place, be warned.

When we started selling, there were just two flats for sale. Now there are seven. Covid has not helped. We've reduced the price. Several times. Meanwhile Kingsdale are laughing because we still have to shell out £600 for Sweet F All. Each month.

[Anastasius]

This was a well publicised case “ Ground rent” of £6k PA.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/nov/16/flat-retirement-builder-value-mccarthy-stone

I’d definitely want a communal swedish sauna like Dave had for that kind of money.....

What's the beef? If it's there in the lease, is anyone pointing a gun at their head to sign ? NO.

[Dave2002]

Care to give any evidence to support this ?

There was a development on the road round Leatherhead a few years ago. Not a location I'd want to live in, and I bet the homes were tiny.
Double glazing doesn't sort it out - and what happens if one wants to open the windows on a hot day.

There are some retirement homes which seem OK - ish, though I personally still feel that the rooms etc. are too small.

[Dave2002]

OK..can we have a reality check, please.

1) When anyone buys one of these retirement flats, the terms and conditions, the exit clauses etc are clearly laid out in the contract and lease. So saying that 'it's a nightmare' just doesn't cut it. Caveat emptor.

2) "Doubly annoying as both the solicitor and estate agent had handled dozens of such sales in that building and didn't think to inform us in advance what the issues were, which would have reduced some of the costs," How? Please can you explain why ? What has them 'selling dozens of such sales" affect the issues ? It's there...in black and white in your lease.

No, they are not unsellable. There are many, many other factors. Location, for one.

I don't agree that fewer and fewer people can afford them. The demographics aren't there. You will always have an elderly person - widow or widower - living in a large house that will fetch a good price on the open market.

You seem to want to argue both ways - both for the developers and also against the management companies who run the retirement accommodation.
A lot of that retirement accommodation doesn't seem to have a "normal" contract. The owner - if that's what they are - though I think they're really just renting - with hpothetically some equity based in the property - is often not allowed to just sell to anyone, so the market is restricted.

Sure - if the homes have a lot of extra support - which is the case with some care homes, then staffing costs shoot up, and there may be medical staff required as well. Some retirement homes do have an element of additional care, though not so much as a serious nursing home.

The issues re these retirement places would be less worrying if there was more honesty - and an admission that after a few years the "property" might not be worth anything. There is dishonesty and misrepresentation in the selling - valuing the benefits highly and ignoring any later problems.

Another issue is that there may be a responsibilty to continue to pay other agencies even after the home has served its purpose. Others are then left with what seems like a bottomless pit unless the "property" is disposed of legally to avoid any further liability. That just seems very wrong to me.

[oddoneout]

OK..can we have a reality check, please.

1) When anyone buys one of these retirement flats, the terms and conditions, the exit clauses etc are clearly laid out in the contract and lease. So saying that 'it's a nightmare' just doesn't cut it. Caveat emptor.

2) "Doubly annoying as both the solicitor and estate agent had handled dozens of such sales in that building and didn't think to inform us in advance what the issues were, which would have reduced some of the costs," How? Please can you explain why ? What has them 'selling dozens of such sales" affect the issues ? It's there...in black and white in your lease.

No, they are not unsellable. There are many, many other factors. Location, for one.

I don't agree that fewer and fewer people can afford them. The demographics aren't there. You will always have an elderly person - widow or widower - living in a large house that will fetch a good price on the open market.

Now a confession...I sincerely hope that what I've written is true for I am in the same boat. Our mother bought a retirement flat in a block owned by Kingsdale - take a look at their accounts and interlocking companies - they make the Cayman Islands look like Enid Blyton. At the time she bought it, there was a waiting list. Maybe it was the demographics...maybe the retirement flat model is doomed to failure...but also maybe in certain areas. For example, who the hell wold want to live in Purley ? Anyway, she became more infirm and eventually moved into a care home and we put her flat up for sale. That was a long time ago. Because of the lease, my sister and I are still shelling out (or rather the proceeds of the sale of the property) over £600 a month. We nearly completed over a year ago. Four times. The same bastard of a buyer trying to buy the house of the lady who wanted to buy our mothers' flat. Have you any idea of the mental trauma. The build-up over the week as completion on Tuesday approaches. The Monday...he's not got the money together... Next week....he's gone to Egypt to get funds..Next week..not got the money yet. His name is Basyouni. Bastard. If he comes trying to buy your place, be warned.

When we started selling, there were just two flats for sale. Now there are seven. Covid has not helped. We've reduced the price. Several times. Meanwhile Kingsdale are laughing because we still have to shell out £600 for Sweet F All. Each month.

Dave I'm sorry to hear about the problems you face with your mother's flat. This article covers similar issues https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...mccarthy-stone
In terms of "reality check" - it's late, so I won't go into it now but suffice to say it wasn't my flat so I didn't have and had never seen the lease etc, and my mother by that time wouldn't engage with such things so we were dealing with it remotely from hundreds of miles away using people who were in a position to provide advice having handed the original sale, but didn't.

[Dave2002]

Dave I'm sorry to hear about the problems you face with your mother's flat. This article covers similar issues https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...mccarthy-stone
In terms of "reality check" - it's late, so I won't go into it now but suffice to say it wasn't my flat so I didn't have and had never seen the lease etc, and my mother by that time wouldn't engage with such things so we were dealing with it remotely from hundreds of miles away using people who were in a position to provide advice having handed the original sale, but didn't.

I think you got confused there - unless Anastasius’ name is Dave - which I doubt.

[oddoneout]

I think you got confused there - unless Anastasius’ name is Dave - which I doubt.

I do apologise Dave - as I said it was late and I should really have switched the computer off. I did think it was an uncharacteristically, erm forthright post for you, and that should have alerted me!

[Anastasius]

You seem to want to argue both ways - both for the developers and also against the management companies who run the retirement accommodation.
A lot of that retirement accommodation doesn't seem to have a "normal" contract. The owner - if that's what they are - though I think they're really just renting - with hpothetically some equity based in the property - is often not allowed to just sell to anyone, so the market is restricted.

Sure - if the homes have a lot of extra support - which is the case with some care homes, then staffing costs shoot up, and there may be medical staff required as well. Some retirement homes do have an element of additional care, though not so much as a serious nursing home.

The issues re these retirement places would be less worrying if there was more honesty - and an admission that after a few years the "property" might not be worth anything. There is dishonesty and misrepresentation in the selling - valuing the benefits highly and ignoring any later problems.

Another issue is that there may be a responsibilty to continue to pay other agencies even after the home has served its purpose. Others are then left with what seems like a bottomless pit unless the "property" is disposed of legally to avoid any further liability. That just seems very wrong to me.

Then simply read the contract. It's not rocket science. The trouble comes when ones elderly mother doesn't read the contract and, even if she had, has decided to proceed and does so. But, as I say, it's all there in the contract.

And I forgot...we're also being stitched up for Council Tax. Even though there's no-one actually taking any benefit whatsoever.

[Dave2002]

And I forgot...we're also being stitched up for Council Tax. Even though there's no-one actually taking any benefit whatsoever.

A few things. Firstly, some older people don't fully know what they're doing when they sign up to things - and although they are deemed to be of sound enough mind, some companies and organisations do take advantage.

On the other hand there are others who are aware but are rich enough to really not care, but not everyone is like that.

[oddoneout]

A few things. Firstly, some older people don't fully know what they're doing when they sign up to things - and although they are deemed to be of sound enough mind, some companies and organisations do take advantage.

On the other hand there are others who are aware but are rich enough to really not care, but not everyone is like that.

And circumstances change. When my mother bought the flat it made sense - after she was widowed she didn't need or want the large chalet bungalow my father had bought for his retirement, and living at such a distance from family the idea of having maintenance etc looked after, a full time resident warden in the block, a lift, single level living, company close at hand, and just across the road from the train station for her many travels. She was an active, intelligent, independent woman and fully compos mentis. Everything was fine for many years, but then changes started, with the warden becoming part-time and then non-resident and cover became patchy for things that needed fixing or help that residents needed. It niggled that the charges increased significantly - she could afford them but thought it was a cheek to provide less and charge more. She had a couple of falls that resulted in fractures and I think began to feel rather vulnerable and that she needed more support. When I went through her papers after her death I found she had been looking into options and discussing financial arrangements with her accountant. Unfortunately events then overtook both her and us. A bad fall landed her in hospital for 3 weeks during which time she said she didn't want to go back to living in the flat, even once she had recovered, but didn't want to leave the area. It was a difficult time(understatement!) sorting convalescent care and a future home. Eventually we found somewhere and moves to sell the flat could start, which brought a whole other set of challenges. Although there were hold-ups and financial penalties(over and above having to continue paying the service charges, council tax etc) it did eventually sell, and we had a couple of month's calm before matters took another bad turn and we were told that my mother had to leave the flat she was in due to her unacceptable behaviour, which turned out to be rapidly progressing vascular dementia. Two months to find a suitable care home, close enough to one of us, but that's another story.
That was all 10 years ago and I realise now just how lucky we were that the flat sold.

[Dave2002]

That was all 10 years ago and I realise now just how lucky we were that the flat sold.

We have had some similar, though not quite the same, experiences. Dealing with Aged Ps can be difficult, though now we are the Aged Ps. Houses and flats are also a pain if they lock up funds, and worse if they can't be sold easily and are still a drain on resources. The "incentives" to sell which came in with George Osborne are not always helpful either - such as having to pay increasing rates of council tax for houses and flats left unoccupied. Not everyone is a Russian or Arab billionaire who doesn't care, but some are people genuinely trying to sell and move on. Fortunately the last flat we were involved in selling eventually sold after several collapsed deals over a period of years, and just in time to hold off the council tax people. Given that it was also about 450 miles away from our home at the time, and had to be visited occasionally in order to check that it was still OK, with problems with the management company etc., it was a big relief to get that sold.

[LHC]

Getting back to the original subject of this thread, a new study has shown that domestic wood burning is now the biggest single cause of small particle pollution in the UK. Although only 8% of the population use wood burning stoves or open fires, they are responsible for 38% of small particle pollution.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/16/home-wood-burning-biggest-cause-particle-pollution-fires

[oddoneout]

Getting back to the original subject of this thread, a new study has shown that domestic wood burning is now the biggest single cause of small particle pollution in the UK. Although only 8% of the population use wood burning stoves or open fires, they are responsible for 38% of small particle pollution.

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...ollution-fires

The last paragraph of that article is I think key, but sadly isn't going to be the way it is tackled in this country. Early shots across the bow were all about banning, outlawing etc., and "engagement" and " information" are not approaches currently favoured, except as soundbites in deflection speeches. Funding local authorities to implement the current regulations, especially in London, to tackle open fires, would be a good and fairly straightforward start(as I've mentioned before a trawl through current estate agents details would give some leads) but obviously won't happen.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The last paragraph of that article is I think key, but sadly isn't going to be the way it is tackled in this country. Early shots across the bow were all about banning, outlawing etc., and "engagement" and " information" are not approaches currently favoured, except as soundbites in deflection speeches. Funding local authorities to implement the current regulations, especially in London, to tackle open fires, would be a good and fairly straightforward start(as I've mentioned before a trawl through current estate agents details would give some leads) but obviously won't happen.

The unfortunate facts are that far from being green and environmentally friendly wood burning releases carbon into the atmosphere and while growing new wood takes carbon out you can quite easily burn a year’s growth in an evening. On top of that you have the particulate pollution problem. I don’t think it’s a problem in the countryside but it cities and towns it definitely is. But when you tell friends with wood burning stoves that they get very defensive.

[Dave2002]

The unfortunate facts are that far from being green and environmentally friendly wood burning releases carbon into the atmosphere and while growing new wood takes carbon out you can quite easily burn a year’s growth in an evening. On top of that you have the particulate pollution problem. I don’t think it’s a problem in the countryside but it cities and towns it definitely is. But when you tell friends with wood burning stoves that they get very defensive.

Is that strictly correct? I suspect it's not far off the truth though, but is that worse than burning thousands or millions of years of accumulated fossil fuels in a relatively short period of time?

That Guardian article makes me think a bit, but what are the options? We burn oil. Sometimes it's so cold that it seems justified. Similarly with wood. We burn "modest" amounts of gas (bottled) for cooking, and also use electricity. Arguably some of our electricity is "green", and there are hydro-generating stations not very far away.

Perhaps we shouldn't ignore the health aspects, as clearly we are among the 8% as we do burn wood on occasions, and in much larger quantities I think than some who may only burn wood very occasionally for effects. The more recently circulated evidence that particle pollution can travel very long distance is also worrying, so although we are a modest distance away even from a moderately small town, the pollution we produce could spread further afield.

However, people who live in cities and burn gas or use electricity shouldn't necessarily imagine that their eco credentials are any better. They probably just don't think about it, because it's "the norm" and "everyone else does it" and it's relatively easy and clean for them.