Wood burners - and open fires

[Anastasius]

Dave2002....your Inbox is full

[ardcarp]

Controlling an underfloor heating system can be difficult. I think too few people really understand how they work, and even knowing some of the basics doesn't help, as one has to know more details, such as the mass of material which is under the house (or floor - if it's not on the ground level) which retains heat. Turning the heat up doesn't really work well, as there will be a substantial delay while the heat builds up, and then there will most likely be an overshoot effect which some people may find uncomfortable. To some extent personal tolerances come into play. Some people only like to have temperatures in a fairly narrow range, while others may be quite happy to have high temperatures, or may not be too perturbed by low ones either. That's why I suggested having underfloor heating, supplemented if necessary by fan heaters to give a quick burst of heat. An added complication is caused by the siting of room thermostats, which can be affected by supplementary heat sources.

Underfloor heating does work, and can be economic, but has slow response times which can be difficult to live with, and many people (including myself sometimes) find them difficult to understand or control. Heat pumps should easily be capable of running an underfloor heating system if it's well designed, but one has to learn to cope with the slow response. Some automated systems may manage to predict the load demand well enough to be helpful, but some may be so difficult that users really don't like them - being too cold when they want to be warm, and too hot when they want to be cool. The response lags do need to be offset carefully.

Rapid changes in weather conditions are also sometimes not helpful for systems with significant response delays. Some systems try to be predictive, but then they may rely on weather forecasts - which as some of us know - is not a guarantee of success, whereas waiting for the weather changes to happen - a feedback method - can be too slow.

All that is very interesting Dave, and it rather confirms my intention never to have underfloor heating! In the Norwegian example I mentioned above, the typiccal house built in the 1870s/80s began by having a large rectangle dug out of the ground (which became bedrooms and bathroom, etc) which was then given a base of concrete into which myriad electric wires were enmeshed....the underfloor heating. The heat from this basement wafted up to the wooden house built on top...all very lovely and Scandinavian....and consequently it was permanently too hot. As you say, any controls seemed to take several days to have any effect. As if that wasn't enough, the main sitting room above just had to have an open woodburning stove whcich was completely unnecessary, but part of the cultural furniture.

[vinteuil]

All that is very interesting Dave, and it rather confirms my intention never to have underfloor heating! .

... some seven years ago we had this victorian two-up-two-down terrace house refurbished - we installed underfloor heating in the extended kitchen/dining room (hot water pipes from the gas-boiler central heating) and in the bathroom (electric cables). It has been wonderful. I wd recommend it to anyone - it's the one good thing in this cold weather, in the morning to pad around in stockinged feet on warm floors...

.

[ardcarp]

I gave up wearing nylons years ago.......

[Old Grumpy]

I gave up wearing nylons years ago.......

I am sure Vinteuil would wear only the finest linen stockings

[oddoneout]

I am sure Vinteuil would wear only the finest linen stockings

Silk for fine stockings.

[ardcarp]

Oh well. Hose on the woodburners.

[Dave2002]

Actually Scandinavian heating can take some getting used to - or not. We had a flat in an apartment block in Swededn for several years. The temperature was set at 22 degrees, which we often found too hot. The rooms were triple glazed, and the heat was provided by air ducts from some central source we never found. You also have to remember that the outside temperature could go down to - 30 degees C - so having some heat was essential.

Nevertheless we tried to reduce the inside temperature by various means such as opening the doors and windows. All that did was cause the heating system to put out more heat, and as far as I know the temperature never deviated from 22 C by more than a degree - despite all our efforts. A very good and very fast acting control system - technically - but not always so pleasant to live with.

On the other hand - British heating systems - generally useless, with poor insulation in the houses and flats, and a lot of time and effort spent trying to keep warm in winter.

re msg 62 - 1870/80s??? Very advanced!!! Electricity too. Mmmm.

[oddoneout]

Actually Scandinavian heating can take some getting used to - or not. We had a flat in an apartment block in Swededn for several years. The temperature was set at 22 degrees, which we often found too hot. The rooms were triple glazed, and the heat was provided by air ducts from some central source we never found. You also have to remember that the outside temperature could go down to - 30 degees C - so having some heat was essential.

Nevertheless we tried to reduce the inside temperature by various means such as opening the doors and windows. All that did was cause the heating system to put out more heat, and as far as I know the temperature never deviated from 22 C by more than a degree - despite all our efforts. A very good and very fast acting control system - technically - but not always so pleasant to live with.

On the other hand - British heating systems - generally useless, with poor insulation in the houses and flats, and a lot of time and effort spent trying to keep warm in winter.

re msg 62 - 1870/80s??? Very advanced!!! Electricity too. Mmmm.

I read it as a basement(used for food and other storage perhaps) which was later adapted?

[vinteuil]

I am sure Vinteuil would wear only the finest linen stockings

... sorry to disappoint - usually Marks & Spencer cotton-rich black ankle-socks

.

[Dave2002]

I read it as a basement(used for food and other storage perhaps) which was later adapted?

We need more clarity for this one.

[Dave2002]

Dave2002....your Inbox is full

There are slightly fewer saved messages now.

[Dave2002]

There is a project starting in Swaffham Prior [Cambridgeshire - not Norfolk] to remove oil boilers, and replace them with some form of local heating network - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/s...zero-2vr7hlmz9

I'm not quite sure how it works. Whether it's really a "conventional" ground source heat pump system, or whether it's relying on geothermal heat. Possibly it's a mix of the two methods, with heat extract from way down (200 metres), but then raised to a higher temperature (70+ Centigrade) by heat pumps or some other related technology on the surface. Maybe this is the way most geothermal systems work - I've not looked at them in any detailed way.

[oddoneout]

More here https://heatingswaffhamprior.co.uk/about/
The 'Prior' part of the name is important so as to avoid confusion with Swaffham in Norfolk.
I don't know how the village scheme will work in practice (I haven't perused the documents) but if it reduces the use of oil that should be regarded as a gain? From the inhabitants point of view it could also represent considerable cost savings and reduce the exposure to wildly fluctuating fuel prices.

[Dave2002]

Indeed - thanks for the information. Post 73 now updated.

I have to say I was surprised at how much one oil burning resident was getting through a year - and paying for. Maybe there wasn't/isn't any insulation in her house. OK it's 5 bedroom and Grade II listed, but does she really have to burn so much? Is it impossible to get some more effective insulation in, or at least just be more economical?