Wood burners - and open fires

[Dave2002]

I'd be interested to hear why you think this is the case as the Building Regs are pretty clear re insulation.

Isn't the issue that one or more of the last few governments have put aside the reglations for certain classes of housing - such as so-called "affordable" housing? The house we're living in now [private market - not in the "affordable" class] dates from 2004, and presumably complies with the legislation from the time. Yet it only has an energy efficiency rating at the high end of D. This I have been told is typical of many houses. Older houses are probably significantly worse. Also, since it seems buyers and estate agents don't really care there seems to be no incentive to improve the state of affairs.

Nudge policies, such as offering grants or interest free loans for home improvements have very little effect - IMO.

Housing in the UK is poor re insulation compared with some other European countries. I don't know how that can be managed. Should there be encouragement of home owners, or companies which own housing, to install and maintain high quality insulation, or should there be "mandatory" rules - which would perhaps be ignored anyway?

[gradus]

Isn't the issue that one or more of the last few governments have put aside the reglations for certain classes of housing - such as so-called "affordable" housing? The house we're living in now [private market - not in the "affordable" class] dates from 2004, and presumably complies with the legislation from the time. Yet it only has an energy efficiency rating at the high end of D. This I have been told is typical of many houses. Older houses are probably significantly worse. Also, since it seems buyers and estate agents don't really care there seems to be no incentive to improve the state of affairs.

Nudge policies, such as offering grants or interest free loans for home improvements have very little effect - IMO.

Housing in the UK is poor re insulation compared with some other European countries. I don't know how that can be managed. Should there be encouragement of home owners, or companies which own housing, to install and maintain high quality insulation, or should there be "mandatory" rules - which would perhaps be ignored anyway?

Better insulation of of old properties is a knotty problem particularly where they are listed or without cavity walls or open to the rafters - all of which problems we face. Secondary double-glazing and better roof insulation certainly helps but it is difficult to go beyond that. Costs can be prohibitive without grants and the change in appearance of the building potentially extreme. PV panels and old tiled roofs don't mix well. I wish I knew the affordable answers!

[Anastasius]

I also wondered whether 'affordable housing' were built to poorer insulation standards, for example. Apparently not so as all housing built - regardless of type - has to adhere to the Building Regulations at the time. These, of course, get amended over time especially on the insulation side - which would explain your D rating, Dave. Various groups clamour for further tightening up - such as triple glazing - but never look at the cost-benefit.

As Gradus has said, improving the insulation of older houses, of which the UK has many, many million is often undesirable - as in the case of Listed Buildings, for example - and the return on investment measured often in terms of a decade or more. Few households have the wish, desire or money to do very much. For example, retro-fitting double-glazing is one of the worst efforts to improve energy efficiency. Loft insulation and draught proofing are quick wins although the latter is difficult if one has an open fire or log-burner. Aesthetics also come into play. Our house, luckily is not listed, even though built in 1752. Our windows are wooden, single-glazed because that aesthetically is what the house needs. In compensation, we installed 4" of Kingspan insulation in the walls.

And then we need to consider whether or not the current way of building houses to be energy efficient is the best way. It isn't and fails basic Passive-Haus techniques. Putting thermal mass inside the walls on the house side, for example. A friend of mine is an architect who designs very energy efficient houses. They look no different to what you'd see in a suburban street. He built one for himself. The heating came on for a couple of days during winter. That was it.

[Dave2002]

I have been involved in planning and discussions with developers. Many will do just about anything they can to cut corners, including trimming everything back for "affordable" homes. You may be less aware of this if you are not in the south of England. Don't imagine that local authorities - which are strapped for cash - are going to spend a lot of time and effort chasing up developers who cheat or go for the bare minimum.

Listed buildings are a problem, and I'm broadly in favour of keeping their appearance. However it ought to be possible to improve the insulation in many of them without destroying the historical value - certainly re external appearance. Where there are a lot of houses all in a community of historical significant it should surely be possible to maintain the external appearance, yet just keep one or two as models of historical value if there are significant internal features.

Re Passiv-Haus techniques, I would strongly advocate those, but I don't think HMG really cares. I'm not sure about the current ways of building houses - and where those might be deficient. Often I think they are wrong because they make assumptions about what people want, what people will do etc., which turn out to be totally wrong. For example, providing very small gardens so that people won't be able to extend. Wait a few years and see what extensions are actually carried out - for example extensions or conservatories which go right up to boundary fences or walls. Trying to restrict developments by attaching constraints to properties doesn't work either.

Decide that old people don't need big houses, only small ones - but in fact many old people do not like those "purpose built" houses, certainly not with small rooms.

Deny people garages so that they can't have cars - doesn't work - see some roads round - for example Shepperton, where it's almost impossible to drive down the road at more than 10 mph, because there are cars on each side of the road, in almost every garden, and up on the pavement too. You might imagine that some form of policing would prevent that - sure - if you want to start a riot!

[french frank]

I put the extra insulation on myself. At least 5 layers during cold weather. Don't even put the heating on except for an hour or so just before I get up and the same about teatime. Then heat one room with the woodburner in the evening (even had to fry some sausage on it last night as the cooker was out of action). I do have double glazing though

[Dave2002]

I put the extra insulation on myself. At least 5 layers during cold weather. Don't even put the heating on except for an hour or so just before I get up and the same about teatime. Then heat one room with the woodburner in the evening (even had to fry some sausage on it last night as the cooker was out of action). I do have double glazing though

I didn't know you could fry on woodburners. I suppose another option might be to make baked potatoes. Does that work if you wrap a potato in foil and put it in the burner, or does it get too hot? I don't think frying is an option for us, as there isn't a top surface to put a pan or anything else on.

I hope you get your cooker working again soon.

[vinteuil]

I put the extra insulation on myself.

... ah, there's ambiguous for you


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[french frank]

I didn't know you could fry on woodburners.

Best if you have the flue coming out of the back (mine doesn't) but there's just enough room for a small frying pan. Obviously the stove has to be especially hot (gas hob now fixed, electric oven will be fixed tomorrow). My previous stove was a wonderful Canadian(?) one which was supplied with a cast iron griddle pan. It's too big for the Stovax, but I use it on the gas hob to cook rösti and flatbreads. Also to use as a warming plate on a low light.

vinteuil, reasonable rates, available now.

[eighthobstruction]

... ah, there's ambiguous for you


.

look you ....she all fat and cosy....

[Anastasius]

....
Listed buildings are a problem, and I'm broadly in favour of keeping their appearance. However it ought to be possible to improve the insulation in many of them without destroying the historical value - certainly re external appearance. Where there are a lot of houses all in a community of historical significant it should surely be possible to maintain the external appearance, yet just keep one or two as models of historical value if there are significant internal features.

...

I couldn't agree less with you on that score. Sio, so many Georgian houses of every shape and size complete with period internal features, cornicing, doors, shutters, windows. Sacrilege to lose it.

[vinteuil]

.
"Many houses are provided with sash-windows. Their frequent occurrence seems strange to a foreigner. If he be an architect he will invariably ask how it is possible to construct them, so that they fit. The answer is simply that they do not fit, sash-windows never fit — that’s why they are used. The use of sash-windows and of open fireplaces, a perfectly medieval way of heating, may be considered as an outcome of the proverbial English conservatism. But considering the matter from the standpoint of an Englishman it may be admitted that there is a certain method in his madness. As he considers it absolutely necessary that the living-rooms be constantly ventilated it must be admitted that it is quite logical to use open fireplaces which can only draw when the air in the room is continually renewed; but that means that the windows must not fit closely, a quality therefore that cannot be considered a drawback but rather a virtue in sash-windows. It is worthy of notice that double windows are rarely used, not because they are too expensive, but because rather a draught than stuffy air. An Englishman going to American or Continental countries where the rooms are better heated and less ventilated than in England suffers terribly. He will long for his lightly constructed houses where the damp winter air whistles through the rooms accompanied by the rattle of the doors and the windows."

Steen Eiler Rasmussen [1898-1990] : 'London: The Unique City' chapter 12 [1934]

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[french frank]

I couldn't agree less with you on that score.

Nor I. One or two as models? It would just take a serious internal fire and you would have one or none. In what sense are listed buildings, in general, 'a problem' - even if they don't lend themselves to high standards of insulation?

[french frank]

He will long for his lightly constructed houses where the damp winter air whistles through the rooms accompanied by the rattle of the doors and the windows."

I have bare floorboards with wide gaps between them and rugs rather than fitted carpets because I like draughts. If I'm cold I put on more clothes. I was appalled to discover how hot some people have their bedrooms at night. "An ideal bedroom temperature should be around 16 to 18°C" My heating is set to come on at night if the temperature drops below 7º - essentially meaning it doesn't come on at night. Probably comes from living for years in a cottage in Aberdeen - no central heating, no electric blanket, no problem.

[Serial_Apologist]

I have bare floorboards with wide gaps between them and rugs rather than fitted carpets because I like draughts. If I'm cold I put on more clothes. I was appalled to discover how hot some people have their bedrooms at night. "An ideal bedroom temperature should be around 16 to 18°C" My heating is set to come on at night if the temperature drops below 7º - essentially meaning it doesn't come on at night. Probably comes from living for years in a cottage in Aberdeen - no central heating, no electric blanket, no problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hedu9Ml1rp0

Personally I can't sleep at night if I have cold ears and a cold nose - which means a room temperature of less than 18 degrees C.

[Dave2002]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hedu9Ml1rp0
Personally I can't sleep at night if I have cold ears and a cold nose - which means a room temperature of less than 18 degrees C.

Ah - so you're not a healthy dog, then!