Trade Deal, or No Deal...

[Serial_Apologist]

If I were trying to fix the fisheries I'd suggest looking at the relative catch percentages immediately pre UK joining the CFA and adjust these to reflect the common scientific consensus on safe catch sizes as this should reflect the various 'grandfather' rights claimed by the Dutch + the French - and as the UK fishing fleet has reduced in size since then it cannot grow overnight so move to new arrangement over a few years. Obvious technical points re size of boats + fishing techniques to be hammered out (some techniques wreck a fishing ground).

The level playing ground could use the WTO mechanism except that this is glacial - however just as the UK has allowed an EU 'office' to 'police' the NI situation possibly a joint committee EU/UK could be established under a WTO appointed chair to look at disputes and if no agreement found (by adjustment of quota/tariff) then a dispute tribunal be set up to decide possibly drawn from WTO/ILO etc organisations

The latter sounds like the one sensible suggestion to have been put forward for a possible settlement: one still contentious issue that seems to have becomes swamped under allegations over the EU insisting in the UK's compliance in any forthcoming changes the UK will have had no part in deciding remains that of government subsidies for struggling businesses - namely the still unanswered question as to whether EU countries' governments are themselves in compliance, or, if not, whether it is they who are breaking so-called fair competition rules.

[Jazzrook]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/21/boris-johnson-cabinet-uk-travel-ban-ministers-covid

JR

[gradus]

The latter sounds like the one sensible suggestion to have been put forward for a possible settlement: one still contentious issue that seems to have becomes swamped under allegations over the EU insisting in the UK's compliance in any forthcoming changes the UK will have had no part in deciding remains that of government subsidies for struggling businesses - namely the still unanswered question as to whether EU countries' governments are themselves in compliance, or, if not, whether it is they who are breaking so-called fair competition rules.

Isn't one of the many historic problems that the Fisheries Policy of the EU has been strongly skewed towards protecting and nurturing the pre-UK member countries fishing fleets to the detriment of our own. I believe that the French at one time claimed the right to fish up to the shores of the UK and it seems from reports that appear occasionally that the controls exercised over foreign fishing fleets by their governments are somewhat less stringent than our fisherman experience at the hands of HMG.

[Frances_iom]

...and it seems from reports that appear occasionally that the controls exercised over foreign fishing fleets by their governments are somewhat less stringent than our fisherman experience at the hands of HMG.

The Manx also have problems with 'foreign' boats - in this case the Scottish fleet who come for the scallops - in past they have wrecked beds that were off limits as nursery beds - 2 years ago when the minister requested that all catches be checked at Manx ports for compliance with quota etc the Scottish government created such a fuss at a high political level that he was forced to drop the regulation. Not that English boats are better - some 12 or so years ago one vessel sank with loss of life - the owners did not want to raise it but the Manx government under local pressure did - it was found to have been 'modified' with hidden tanks for the catch which may well have reduced its sea worthiness - the trial of the owner foundered on this point but the intent to cheat was obvious.

[oddoneout]

Isn't one of the many historic problems that the Fisheries Policy of the EU has been strongly skewed towards protecting and nurturing the pre-UK member countries fishing fleets to the detriment of our own. I believe that the French at one time claimed the right to fish up to the shores of the UK and it seems from reports that appear occasionally that the controls exercised over foreign fishing fleets by their governments are somewhat less stringent than our fisherman experience at the hands of HMG.

Polly Toynbee isn't everyone's cup of tea but it's worth skimmimg through the article JR linked in #92 to see just what a can of worms the fishing issue is thanks to decisions the UK government made about who got quota, how much and what they could do with it.
This is also something of an eye -opener

Harrods alone adds as much to the UK economy as fishing, according to the Financial Times.

considering just what a sticking point it is proving.

[Bryn]

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/other/irish-government-to-fund-erasmus-programme-for-northern-irish-students-post-brexit/ar-BB1cg1jb

[jayne lee wilson]

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/other...it/ar-BB1cg1jb

Just underlines how silly Little England is looking in its wilful isolationism. And when Scotland leaves for the EU.......
Front Page of the Observer is truly depressing. It all feels very real now!

Need a longer walk to recover my spirits.... good weather for it at least.

[Pulcinella]

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/other...it/ar-BB1cg1jb

I just skimmed through, so apologies if it is mentioned, and I missed it: will Queen's Belfast still accept Erasmus students from the EU? I can envisage a goodly number of applicants if so.

[french frank]

I just skimmed through, so apologies if it is mentioned, and I missed it: will Queen's Belfast still accept Erasmus students from the EU? I can envisage a goodly number of applicants if so.

You might understand this better than me, Pulcie. My understanding was that students studying on the Erasmus scheme always paid (or someone paid for them) the same as the institutions' home students. So UK students would pay no fees in, say Germany, but German students (or their governments) had to pay UK level tuition fees.

On that basis, EU students would continue to pay tuition fees to study at Queen's but (as in this story) Queen's students would have had to start paying fees (in Germany) now - but actually won't do so because the Republic has agreed to pick up the tab. Is that right? In other words, the situation for Queen's students and EU students will not have changed at all. A supposition, merely.

[Pulcinella]

You might understand this better than me, Pulcie. My understanding was that students studying on the Erasmus scheme always paid (or someone paid for them) the same as the institutions' home students. So UK students would pay no fees in, say Germany, but German students (or their governments) had to pay UK level tuition fees.

On that basis, EU students would continue to pay tuition fees to study at Queen's but (as in this story) Queen's students would have had to start paying fees (in Germany) now - but actually won't do so because the Republic has agreed to pick up the tab. Is that right? In other words, the situation for Queen's students and EU students will not have changed at all. A supposition, merely.

You may well be right; my posting was somewhat conjectural, and I certainly hadn't appreciated the reciprocal fee element that you suggest already applied. Can EU Erasmus students still apply to other (GB) universities and have their fees picked up then, I wonder?
I suppose a bigger potential problem is what happens to the traditional year abroad that language students used to spend in Europe: will that still be funded?

[french frank]

You may well be right; my posting was somewhat conjectural, and I certainly hadn't appreciated the reciprocal fee element that you suggest already applied. Can EU Erasmus students still apply to other (GB) universities and have their fees picked up then, I wonder?
I suppose a bigger potential problem is what happens to the traditional year abroad that language students used to spend in Europe: will that still be funded?

I suppose it all depends on who funded the schemes pre EU. I don't see why the year abroad shouldn't continue from an adminstrative point of view (obtaining visas where required) as long as someone was prepared to pay the necessary fees. To be honest, I never even thought about who paid for me to be abroad. There will still be scholarships and local authorities coughing up as before for maintenance/subsistence, so I don't see why receiving institutions would want to block students. After all, not all UK students spent their year in EU countries back then (in fact in my day we weren't in the EU )

As far as Erasmus is concerned, my experience is irrelevant since I was a language student anyway, but Erasmus is very much wider than than and I guess it will depend on how closely links were forged between universities.

[oddoneout]

More on Ireland and Erasmus here, https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020...thern-ireland/ which also explains the interest in keeping it funded - the Irish Government was involved in establishing it. Their Education Minister views it as an investment rather than simply a cost.

[oddoneout]

I suppose it all depends on who funded the schemes pre EU. I don't see why the year abroad shouldn't continue from an adminstrative point of view (obtaining visas where required) as long as someone was prepared to pay the necessary fees. To be honest, I never even thought about who paid for me to be abroad. There will still be scholarships and local authorities coughing up as before for maintenance/subsistence, so I don't see why receiving institutions would want to block students. After all, not all UK students spent their year in EU countries back then (in fact in my day we weren't in the EU )

As far as Erasmus is concerned, my experience is irrelevant since I was a language student anyway, but Erasmus is very much wider than than and I guess it will depend on how closely links were forged between universities.

I think one of the points about Erasmus was that the central administration made access easier and therefore more available to those students who circumstances warranted receiving the money? Finding and applying for scholarships and grants can be daunting for those not from a tradition of undertaking tertiary education. In any case local authority grants have long been adversely affected by funding constraints.
The UK replacement (Turing scheme - not I think anything to do with the Turing Fund) seems to involve each establishment bidding to join the scheme and being funded to administer it, which doesn't seem the best way to ensure optimum outcomes(except for those adept at being given the job of administering public funds?) either in terms of value for money or equality of opportunity.

[ardcarp]

My eldest grand-daughter, who graduated earlier this year with a degree in French, spent the third year of a four year course as an Erasmus student.She was probably one of the last from mainland UK. She is terribly upset about the ending of the scheme, its great strength being that she met Erasmus students from all over Europe. In fact her 'best friend' abroad is a lovely Spanish girl with whom she shared accommodation. I suspect the so called Turing scheme will turn out to be nothing but a sop to the Brexiteers.

[oddoneout]

My eldest grand-daughter, who graduated earlier this year with a degree in French, spent the third year of a four year course as an Erasmus student.She was probably one of the last from mainland UK. She is terribly upset about the ending of the scheme, its great strength being that she met Erasmus students from all over Europe. In fact her 'best friend' abroad is a lovely Spanish girl with whom she shared accommodation. I suspect the so called Turing scheme will turn out to be nothing but a sop to the Brexiteers.

I'm not convinced that knowledge of, or concern about, Erasmus is high among the Brexiteer community so some other group, possibly in the university community? is being paid off.