Trade Deal, or No Deal...

[Roslynmuse]

It's so desperately appalling. Apart from messing up the economy and losing all the travel and living advantages we had in Europe, we have trashed that amazing thing: peace and security. For a few decades we experienced the knowledge that war with any European country was not merely unlikely but an utterly absurd idea. Without wanting to be melodramatic might I suggest that you would have to go back centuries to find another era where peace reigned so securely between Britain and her European neighbours.

Totally concur. Nothing to add, except that while commentators are emphasising the economic and cultural problems that will result from Brexit, huge as they are, this is the thing we should really be scared about.

[Serial_Apologist]

Totally concur. Nothing to add, except that while commentators are emphasising the economic and cultural problems that will result from Brexit, huge as they are, this is the thing we should really be scared about.

As I've said before I just don't think the generations below mine will countenance any such thing happening. They, unlike us who were literally raised on the idea of foreignness=otherness, and had to develop our own counter-critiques (with the help of history); they on the other hand have been raised and nurtured on a bedrock of internationalism which, albeit a capitalist market version, has been preferable to the recent years' return to nationalism, little Englandism, big America, Russia, etc., and is now further informed by an ecological message emphasising anti-speciesism and inter-connectedness. Any prospect of war would make the response to the Poll Tax comparable with a vicarage tea party - where would be the response from cut-budget policing with the army brought in as last resort?

[french frank]

Tony Blair should take a great deal of the blame for this,as the really big decision was taken on his watch, he being of course a prominent and vocal pro- european.

Blair was the enabler, though it seems that there was a miscalculation as to how many A8 immigrants would take advantage of it. It was regarded as 'uncontroversial' at the time - back in 2004.

Not admitting it was, in retrospect, a UK blunder left the EU once again as the perceived threat, especially when the fears about immigration were stoked up by the press.

[kernelbogey]

Nothing I disagree with in above posts.

Yes I read about that, and it took me back to the days when water treatment tablets were part of the essential camping kit for family holidays, especially in France. The water tasted foul and made rotten tea and gave me gut rot - although presumably not as bad as if the water wasn't treated... Thrilled to think I might have to go back to that - not. I can't handle large plastic bottles and the thought of the plastic waste from more manageable ones will make that an option of last resort. Perhaps next year's capital investment project should be a borehole and filtration plant in the back garden... Some houses round the corner had wells outside the back door so the potential is there.

I remember J R L Anderson writing that the flavour of almost any water can be improved by the addition of a very small amount of whisky - a teaspoon or so.

It might not kill all the bugs, but at least the water would taste better!

[Serial_Apologist]

Nothing I disagree with in above posts.



I remember J R L Anderson writing that the flavour of almost any water can be improved by the addition of a very small amount of whisky - a teaspoon or so.

It might not kill all the bugs, but at least the water would taste better!

Boiling water is said to kill off all bugs. It will be one big hassle, mind, having to wait for it to cool down when you're that thirsty only cold water can suffice. And I'll miss my one sole pleasure in life today, drinking my own bathwater.

[DracoM]

[jayne lee wilson]

Johnson's political character is needing to be loved, hero-worshipped, so I speculate that he wants to be seen as pulling off a "brilliant last minute deal", for which the Telegraph and other disciples or political ignoramuses can worship him. He is of course quite cynical and selfish enough to draw that out.

He certainly knows too, that a no-deal exit would inflict such privations on "the people" (most of all the much-mentioned-yet-ignored "red wall") he would have to do a deal at some point in 2021, and in far less favourable circumstances with the EU - who would know all about the pressure upon him and all of us.

It is terribly worrying on many levels (so many EU products that I absolutely depend upon, medicinal and foodstuff), but not over yet, by a long way....

[oddoneout]

Johnson's political character is needing to be loved, hero-worshipped, so I speculate that he wants to be seen as pulling off a "brilliant last minute deal", for which the Telegraph and other disciples or political ignoramuses can worship him. He is of course quite cynical and selfish enough to draw that out.

He certainly knows too, that a no-deal exit would inflict such privations on "the people" (most of all the much-mentioned-yet-ignored "red wall") he would have to do a deal at some point in 2021, and in far less favourable circumstances with the EU - who would know all about the pressure upon him and all of us.

It is terribly worrying on many levels (so many EU products that I absolutely depend upon, medicinal and foodstuff), but not over yet, by a long way....

I'm not entirely convinced he does 'know' as in genuinely understand. It's been remarked by many observers that he is not a details man, doesn't like putting in the work and isn't keen on listening to those who do know what they are talking about if it doesn't align with his view. This is after all the man who claims he can't manage on his PM's salary.

[vinteuil]

.

... Oliver Edwards, in Boswell's Life of Johnson lives for his one deathless remark - “You are a philosopher, Dr. Johnson. I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don’t know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.” Like Edwards, I am normally of a chirpy disposition, 'cheerfulness always breaking in'.

I am finding this very hard at the moment. I know that over a longer time span these things will diminish in their importance, but for the moment I feel (a) I'm getting old and won't see anything as good as we've had over the last forty years, and (b) those of the younger generations I care for will be the ones who suffer most. And as others have said, not so much for those of us who have a privileged and comfortable life, but those with slender margins if any, who will be punished with many unforeseen miseries.

And having worked believing in the promotion of a certain idea of British and Western values - I have never felt so ashamed to be seen as British.

Seriously depressing. Concentrating on a few local good things will be the way forward for me. As the man said, "Il faut cultiver notre jardin".

.

.

[antongould]

.

... Oliver Edwards, in Boswell's Life of Johnson lives for his one deathless remark - “You are a philosopher, Dr. Johnson. I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don’t know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.” Like Edwards, I am normally of a chirpy disposition, 'cheerfulness always breaking in'.

I am finding this very hard at the moment. I know that over a longer time span these things will diminish in their importance, but for the moment I feel (a) I'm getting old and won't see anything as good as we've had over the last forty years, and (b) those of the younger generations I care for will be the ones who suffer most. And as others have said, not so much for those of us who have a privileged and comfortable life, but those with slender margins if any, who will be punished with many unforeseen miseries.

And having worked believing in the promotion of a certain idea of British and Western values - I have never felt so ashamed to be seen as British.

Seriously depressing. Concentrating on a few local good things will be the way forward for me. As the man said, "Il faut cultiver notre jardin".

.

.

Well said vints .......IMVVHO

[DracoM]

Echoed to every last syllable - esp about what this has visited upon our children / grandchildren.

[teamsaint]

Blair was the enabler, though it seems that there was a miscalculation as to how many A8 immigrants would take advantage of it. It was regarded as 'uncontroversial' at the time - back in 2004.

Not admitting it was, in retrospect, a UK blunder left the EU once again as the perceived threat, especially when the fears about immigration were stoked up by the press.

My recollection is that there was quite a lot of concern at the time, and it is certainly the case that the other big european economies took a more cautious approach. I think it was a catastrophic error of judgement .

[teamsaint]

There was a fantastic piece on 5live yesterday , concerning the help that churches are giving to those struggling on Universal Credit in Middlesbrough. A terrific antidote to the dreadful behaviour of many of our politicians, ( and not just tories) , and exactly the sort of thing that would stop me being ashamed of being seen as British, on account of the actions of politicians.
There is so much good as well as bad,and I think that a balanced approach to how we feel about the place we live, pride in the good, some determination to try to fix the bad, is really important, because giving our power away to political players does us a great disservice.

[eighthobstruction]

Boiling water is said to kill off all bugs. It will be one big hassle, mind, having to wait for it to cool down when you're that thirsty only cold water can suffice. And I'll miss my one sole pleasure in life today, drinking my own bathwater.

....you can still drink it, but you may have to filter....(a premium product when applied to Milk)....

,,,,interesting that Poles And Hungarians may consistently hold Eu to ransom with their veto's

[gurnemanz]

Echoed to every last syllable - esp about what this has visited upon our children / grandchildren.

I am very pleased that our children in their 30s and having grown up bilingually in this country were able thanks to having a German mother to obtain a German passport and have dual citizenship. Our daughter contacted the German Embassy on the day of the referendum result. Many valued EU citizens understandably see no future in our country and the number of British nationals emigrating to other EU countries has risen by 30% since Brexit.

As a teacher first of English in Germany and then of German in England, hopefully making some small contribution to better relations and communication with our nearest neighbours I feel sad and betrayed by a government whose policy is to antagonise them with blame and confrontation. At least Covid means we can't go to Germany where we now feel ashamed and embarrassed to be from this country.