Coronavirus: social, economic and other changes as a result of the pandemic

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  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 18035

    Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
    It's still not known if having the vaccination means one does not "get" the virus and potentially transfer it onto others.

    Apologies if this point has already been made.
    Indeed, and a few experts have made this point in briefings today, and it is still not really known whether the virus will adapt or whether having been infected once will render one immune for a long time into the future. The current evidence is that although there are many strains of the virus, they are all similar enough that vaccination is a feasible defence. Also the virus is not adapting particularly fast, so in the short to medium term a vaccination approach should work. It would be great if longer term protection could be guaranteed, but I don't think that's known to be feasible at all yet. It is thought that some people have had multiple infections, but there have only been relatively few cases checked out.

    Once a vaccination programme starts ......

    In the first month or so, nothing will really change, since the people who will be vaccinated will be the very elderly and the most vulnerable, and not in everybody's everyday society. So most of us should take the same precautions as we having been doing (hopefully) for most of this year - not meeting people, washing hands, wearing masks if out and about, not going indoors etc.

    After a while people who are vaccinated will hopefully start to get a benefit - as they will be - as far as can be told at present - immune, though I still wouldn't recommend that they went out deliberately looking for the virus.

    Remember that these vaccines do two things. Firstly, they may give the vaccinated person some protection against the virus, but in one sense that isn't what the public health officials are looking for. They are not trying to protect (most) particular individuals in society, but rather larger groups. It's sad when individuals become ill and sometimes die, but it's not the job of the public health officials to protect people at an individual level.

    The other thing is that as more people are vaccinated, the prevalence of active virus in the community should go down, so the probability of encountering anyone with an active viral load diminishes. People are thinking of this as "herd immunity", but I'm not sure that that is really what it is. Any one individual who has not been vaccinated is possibly just as likely to suffer as before if he or she does meet someone with the virus, but the probability that that happens will diminish over time.

    There may also be biological effects, as the virus adapts, and it's possible that there could be some form of immunity picked up by a biological mechanism, but essentially the main effect is to reduce the prevalence of the virus in the community, thus reducing the likelihood of transmission with the consequences of that.

    Over time - and I'm not an expert in this - the public health officials may have some idea - the prevalence of the virus will start to drop, but it will depend to some extent on the community. My guess is that this will take 3 to 6 months once a full vaccination programme gets fully underway, but it may take longer as obviously there are going to be lots of logistic problems.

    Thus I would hesitate before booking a flight of any sort with a full plane load of passengers unless one has high confidence in the vaccines used, and also high confidence that there is unlikely to be anyone on that flight who is carrying the virus, whether vaccinated or not. Airline and travel companies will probably try to push for "business as usual" as soon as possible, and given what we are now seeing in our society regarding economic and social effects that may be helpful to some people, but people who are in what have now been identified as high risk or vulnerable groups may still (and not unreasonably) feel safer waiting until known infection rates are really low - ideally zero.

    Gradually more and more people will become confident that they can go back to "business as usual" - which for many people will not be unreasonable, but there will still be some vulnerable people who might become infected if there is still any virus active anywhere in the community. Probably people willl start to become less concerned, even careless, which might allow pockets of infection to linger on longer than otherwise.

    If the vaccines do indeed seem safe, and if the incidence of the virus decreases considerably, then the best protection for each person will be to accept a vaccination, rather than relying on "herd" immunity - an assumption that there is low or no virus out there to be infected by.

    Comment

    • Dave2002
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 18035

      Originally posted by Anastasius View Post
      But I'd prefer to carry an electronic vaccination certificate if it meant that I didn't have to where a mask.
      What's wrong with a paper one? OK - it might be contaminated with a virus.

      I suppose one can get carried away with refusing to have vaccinations etc., but as I recall, in the "Land of the Free" most children are not allowed to go to school unless there is evidence that they have been vaccinated against some diseases. Maybe it's not the same across all the states, but it certainly is the case in some west coast states. On the other hand illegal immigrant children may not have vaccination certificates or have not been vaccinated (it's considered unreasonable to have documentation for people who might otherwise be discriminated against ....), do go to school, and sometimes they introduce diseases such as TB back into the local community.

      So - perhaps the view should be :

      If you stay in the UK, whether you get vaccinated or not is your personal decision. Your freedom of whatever ....
      If you travel outside the UK, you should comply with whatever rules the external country imposes.

      Then it's your choice.

      Comment

      • Anastasius
        Full Member
        • Mar 2015
        • 1860

        Originally posted by rathfarnhamgirl View Post
        Wear would one where a mask?
        Tyne and Wear ?
        Fewer Smart things. More smart people.

        Comment

        • teamsaint
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 25225

          Originally posted by Anastasius View Post
          Tyne and Wear ?
          Ware ?
          I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

          I am not a number, I am a free man.

          Comment

          • Pulcinella
            Host
            • Feb 2014
            • 11062

            Originally posted by rathfarnhamgirl View Post
            Wear would one where a mask?
            On the road to Damascus?
            Sceptics might even have a moment of conversion, and start believing that they're a good idea!

            Comment

            • Anastasius
              Full Member
              • Mar 2015
              • 1860

              Originally posted by teamsaint View Post
              Ware ?
              I never did grasp homonyms
              Fewer Smart things. More smart people.

              Comment

              • Bryn
                Banned
                • Mar 2007
                • 24688

                Originally posted by Anastasius View Post
                I never did grasp homonyms
                What's with all the homophonia on this thread.

                Comment

                • Serial_Apologist
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 37814

                  Originally posted by Bryn View Post
                  What's with all the homophonia on this thread.
                  Some of us are anonyms on this forum.

                  Comment

                  • Dave2002
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 18035

                    Here is an interesting analysis of several factors in the US re what has happened to economics, food poverty etc. - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...mentsContainer

                    There might be something similar for the UK, though as yet I'm unaware of it. What is shocking - though it may well be replicated in the UK - is that although food poverty seems to have risen, along with unemployment, property values and rents have risen as well, thus making it harder for already disadvantaged people to manage. Additionally gaps between different groups have widened, thus increasing inequality. The same may turn out to be the case in the UK - though as yet I have not seen any definitive source, or detailed discussion of this.

                    Comment

                    • Serial_Apologist
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 37814

                      Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                      Here is an interesting analysis of several factors in the US re what has happened to economics, food poverty etc. - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...mentsContainer

                      There might be something similar for the UK, though as yet I'm unaware of it. What is shocking - though it may well be replicated in the UK - is that although food poverty seems to have risen, along with unemployment, property values and rents have risen as well, thus making it harder for already disadvantaged people to manage. Additionally gaps between different groups have widened, thus increasing inequality. The same may turn out to be the case in the UK - though as yet I have not seen any definitive source, or detailed discussion of this.
                      You have to go back to Mark Carney's confused conflation of value and values in his Reith Lectures and disentangle them. Prices rise and fall in relation to scarcity and abundance; value has been imparted into manufactured produce by workers collectively working given numbers of hours in competing firms whose owners and top directors pay themselves exhorbitantly above what they pay the workforces without whom the products from which their firms profit could not have come into existence. That pay gap further accentuates the power invested in big capital ownership on so many levels, beyond the rights and wrongs of competition, the power to determine price being one of them. Andrew Marr's TV programme The Elizabethans, in which he effectively justifies the primacy of price by way of how British workforces have been continually disadvantaged by British inventions being usurped by more efficient companies abroad. It's the old, old story of the tendency within global monopoly capitalism to periodically come up against the buffers of its own making, due to the way its constituent parts operate under the cloak of commercial confidentiality.

                      The only way to overcome this is by companies sharing their information - which won't happen under this system which advantages the ruthless. Yes it will be less "efficient" if efficiency is judged on how quickly turnover can be made with the help of advertising and short life products; but think how stuff which will always be needed could be made more sustainably and to last!

                      Comment

                      • teamsaint
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 25225

                        Easy to be a referee in the stands, but the pandemic has been a field day for amazon and the supermarkets.

                        A huge windfall tax to be redistributed to businesses forced to close, or those in their supply chain would be good.

                        From the decimation of several industries amid the Covid pandemic to the rise of Zoom, 2020 has been an unprecedented year
                        I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                        I am not a number, I am a free man.

                        Comment

                        • oddoneout
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2015
                          • 9273

                          Originally posted by teamsaint View Post
                          Easy to be a referee in the stands, but the pandemic has been a field day for amazon and the supermarkets.

                          A huge windfall tax to be redistributed to businesses forced to close, or those in their supply chain would be good.

                          https://www.theguardian.com/business...ar-in-business
                          I think the best we can hope for in that direction is the return of public money such as rate relief and furlough support.

                          Comment

                          • teamsaint
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 25225

                            Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
                            I think the best we can hope for in that direction is the return of public money such as rate relief and furlough support.
                            No doubt.
                            Though we can all do our bit to focus spending elsewhere of course.

                            It would be good to see more help for those ( such as yourself I think) who “ fell through the cracks.”

                            Nobody should be losing their livelihood because of a government decision to close businesses, and especially when some competitor businesses ( EG. Supermarkets selling books when book shops are closed ) receive favoured status.
                            I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                            I am not a number, I am a free man.

                            Comment

                            • french frank
                              Administrator/Moderator
                              • Feb 2007
                              • 30456

                              Originally posted by teamsaint View Post
                              Nobody should be losing their livelihood because of a government decision to close businesses, and especially when some competitor businesses ( EG. Supermarkets selling books when book shops are closed ) receive favoured status.
                              One smidegeon of good news: that independent local businesses have done well when allowed to open. In some cases adaptability has helped. Locally, a pizzeria which used to do takeaways shut down completely, a French bistro which didn't do takeaways wasn't well placed to start, but a Hungarian cafe which had always offered all their dishes as takeaways has been able to weather the restaurant closure rules.
                              It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                              Comment

                              • Bryn
                                Banned
                                • Mar 2007
                                • 24688



                                I considered posting this in the jokes thread but decided here was more apposite.

                                Comment

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