Coronavirus: social, economic and other changes as a result of the pandemic

[Richard Barrett]

Italians seem quite comfortable having to carry ID on them at all times, too.

That goes for pretty much all European countries and no doubt others too. In my experience, police officers in the UK are a great deal more friendly and approachable than elsewhere, although one's mileage no doubt varies with skin colour among other things. Where I am, during the curfew they had large numbers of officers on patrol, roadblocks around the city, and in general they carried on in such a way that in the UK would raise serious objections about the place turning into a police state.

[teamsaint]

In saying this, I'm not aiming my remarks at Teamsaint. I haven't followed his contributions over 17 pages here, 378 pages on the main thread to get a correct appreciation of his position. But there are a significant number of those who don't agree with government issuing rules, and object that they should be penalised for not following them - so understanding those views have their place in the conversation I would suggest.

I thought your post deserved a response, CS, so I thought I would try to make clear how I feel about some of the issues you have mentioned, and with the caveat that I don't come at this from some particular political stance, or from any specific philosophical position.

Unfortunately the current health care problems, it seems to me, are being used in various ways by those with agendas other than the very best outcomes for the general public at heart. And in those groups I would include those with disruptive agendas from all sides, which include many high up in, and close to the heart of government, as well as some from outside the mainstream of party politics.

It is true to say I think that we have a government without the skills or experience to deal in any way competently with this crisis, but one that does have the ability to use the crisis as an opportunity to try to implement changes that it sees as being in its own interests, and those of its powerful supporters.

Personal responsibility and social contract are vital ingredients in the smooth functioning of a society, and I would say that in the main, that has actually held during the pandemic. Not 100% of course, but I am certain that press representation of those not taking personal responsibility has enormously magnified the true scale of the failures in this regard. It isn't too hard to take a photograph of a properly distanced beach or high street from ground level , and make it look like badly over congested scene. This has happened a great deal, and is just one example.

The name of freedom is too often taken in vain , but given the nature of this crisis, and the disastrous nature of our current government ( and the Labour party is far from guiltless in loss of trust and competency in politics), we do need to watch true erosion of liberties like a hawk. The pandemic will pass, it has been, and may well continue to be nasty and tough, but freedoms lost are going to be really damaging, and hard to win back. We all have views about what really matters, where to draw lines, and where poor government strategy becomes willfully damaging policy, and so we all have judgments to make, within the broad framework of keeping to the rule of law, where that law makes any kind of sense, but not just where we happen to agree with it.
Personally, I'm not that keen to see carrying of ID cards made compulsory. But It happens elsewhere, and it seems to me not to be a step change in personal liberty.
The T and T system is wide open to abuse, but may well be a useful tool in dealing with the virus. Where there is a clear public interest, I have submitted my details EG in restaurants. Where there seems to me no obvious reason to register, because it will serve no public purpose and appears to be nothing more than a data collection exercise of no public health benefit, I'm happy to withhold my information,and I'm comfortable with that.
There was a great deal of opposition on this forum to the original NHS app, on entirely justified grounds, although I personally was of the opinion that since the movements of anybody with a smartphone ( and probably without) are already easily trackable, that I was prepared to consider using it, not for my good, but for the greater good. Maybe I was wrong, but it turned out to be a non issue .
We all have lines in the sand. And, though others will likely disagree, the Health Passport would be it. The dangers that it potentially holds are enormous, and the damage to freedoms could be close to irreversible. It really isn't difficult or overly paranoid to imagine how it could easily be that in order to access any number of locations or services, that a clean record needed to be shown on our phones, a clean record that relies on all manner of things being in good order, not to mention uncorrupted by bad tech, bad luck or something more sinister. Once the health part was in place, there would be little change needed to require other " clean" info to be shown in order to access transport, the workplace, public services, or whatever. That is a prospect that needs stamping on hard, because it isn't part of a world that I want to see, and which China has given us a glimpse of. I don't think this government has the ability to implement it yet, but the " moonshot" strategy shows that they have the will, and they are prepared to spend the money ( repayable by us of course) to achieve it. £100 bn of public money on an electronic ID system should send alarm bells into overload.
The crisis is a complex thing. Too much collateral damage has already occurred, in non- covid health care systems , wellbeing, the economy, relationships, for us to take any further unnecessary damage lightly. We each need to assess the risks, and our responsibilities the best way we can, but treating the potential wholesale erosion of freedoms lightly, even if it is a banner often used by those with whom we disagree , is going to be too big a price to pay.

Apologies for the ramble !!

[Dave2002]

Department of Administrative Affairs

OK - we haven't got a PM with quite the skills of Jim Hacker, but maybe we really do need a Department of Aministrative Affairs. Now that there are obvious problems with "getting anything done" - at least as far as many government departments are concerned, there could at least be a hotline for troubleshooting, which would then smooth the way with other departments, and provide a potentially useful interface between us and them.

Since so much has now gone online, we have now ended up with the nonsense of trying to do things online, then trying a phone line, which instead of having real people to answer the phone has another automated procedure - with no bailout to a human (which many private companies do have for problem cases) - with a final comment something like "Did you know you can go on the website, where you can complete the ...."

With so much money being spent on other things - apparently - one might imagine it would be possible to spend more on the administration and make it significantly more effective and efficient. It does not take a genius to work that out, but then .... It's not as if the powers that be haven't had time to figure this out - that's not an excuse any more.

I think this issue affects many parts of the administration, but DVLA is one which is need of a makeover.

Oh - the ultimate fall back - go to a Post Office and get a new form, and submit by post. Comment: Postal queries may take up to 6 weeks to be dealt with.

[oddoneout]

OK - we haven't got a PM with quite the skills of Jim Hacker, but maybe we really do need a Department of Aministrative Affairs. Now that there are obvious problems with "getting anything done" - at least as far as many government departments are concerned, there could at least be a hotline for troubleshooting, which would then smooth the way with other departments, and provide a potentially useful interface between us and them.

Since so much has now gone online, we have now ended up with the nonsense of trying to do things online, then trying a phone line, which instead of having real people to answer the phone has another automated procedure - with no bailout to a human (which many private companies do have for problem cases) - with a final comment something like "Did you know you can go on the website, where you can complete the ...."

With so much money being spent on other things - apparently - one might imagine it would be possible to spend more on the administration and make it significantly more effective and efficient. It does not take a genius to work that out, but then .... It's not as if the powers that be haven't had time to figure this out - that's not an excuse any more.

I think this issue affects many parts of the administration, but DVLA is one which is need of a makeover.

Oh - the ultimate fall back - go to a Post Office and get a new form, and submit by post. Comment: Postal queries may take up to 6 weeks to be dealt with.

There's no incentive to do things even halfway properly - no profit/benefit in it, staff cost money, the complainers will give up eventually, problem solved. Even less incentive if contracts can be awarded just on the basis of being a Tory crony donor with no expectation or necessity of actually doing the work. Looking after and serving the needs of the people and country isn't so much low down the priority list as completely absent from it now.

[Dave2002]

There's no incentive to do things even halfway properly - no profit/benefit in it, staff cost money, the complainers will give up eventually, problem solved. Even less incentive if contracts can be awarded just on the basis of being a Tory crony donor with no expectation or necessity of actually doing the work. Looking after and serving the needs of the people and country isn't so much low down the priority list as completely absent from it now.

I don't think things have to be done this badly. If we're in the top 20 countries in world, then how on earth do the rest manage?

Perhaps if goverments and administration are completely useless, the people bypass them and do their own thing - possibly better. Here we have departments which are supposed to function, but we're not supposed to bypass them or ignore them, but trying to get sensible action is sometimes very difficult.

[Dave2002]

Here is a not very conclusive article about the effects of Eat Out to Help Out - https://theconversation.com/eat-out-...indings-145945

[Jazzrook]

Capitalism, coronavirus and mental distress:

https://isj.org.uk/coronavirus-mental-distress/

JR

[Bryn]

I've just been watching a BBC News item on the need to reopen theatres and concert halls. A clear argument in favour was the that there is no talking in the audience (or at least there shouldn't be). I would add that applause should also be discouraged, if not banned. Viruses on the palms and fingers could be shed and wafted around by enthusiastic applause. As for shouts of bis or encore . . .

[Serial_Apologist]

I've just been watching a BBC News item on the need to reopen theatres and concert halls. A clear argument in favour was the that there is no talking in the audience (or at least there shouldn't be). I would add that applause should also be discouraged, if not banned. Viruses on the palms and fingers could be shed and wafted around by enthusiastic applause. As for shouts of bis or encore . . .

I thought it was Covid-19 that was the problem, not the clap!

[teamsaint]

Popped round to the doctors today, to drop in a repeat prescription request.

Now, in addition to the massive pull up sign telling us to keep out, and the table across the internal door, they have a full door- sized plastic screen with a little slot to hand over requests and receive prescriptions, which is literally the only medical activity taking place there. I wish I was making this up.

It really is madness. We are being taught to treat other people as little more than walking virus carriers, and unless we are very careful it will end badly.

[Anastasius]

Popped round to the doctors today, to drop in a repeat prescription request.

Now, in addition to the massive pull up sign telling us to keep out, and the table across the internal door, they have a full door- sized plastic screen with a little slot to hand over requests and receive prescriptions, which is literally the only medical activity taking place there. I wish I was making this up.

It really is madness. We are being taught to treat other people as little more than walking virus carriers, and unless we are very careful it will end badly.

So what would you propose instead ? All I hear from you is 'moan, moan, moan'. Covid exists. It kills. I really fail to understand why some folk find that so hard to understand and bitch about their 'freedoms' being eroded. To survive this, it's a collective responsibility. Trouble is, certainly in the 'liberal' West the 'I' is deemed more important than the 'Us'.

On a positive note, suggest your surgery gets into the 21st century. If I need a repeat prescription, I simply go online to the surgery and make the request. I then get a text from Boots when it's ready for collection.

[Dave2002]

Popped round to the doctors today, to drop in a repeat prescription request.

Now, in addition to the massive pull up sign telling us to keep out, and the table across the internal door, they have a full door- sized plastic screen with a little slot to hand over requests and receive prescriptions, which is literally the only medical activity taking place there. I wish I was making this up.

Are you sure that the surgery is only acting as a postbox for prescriptions. Ours seems similar, but mrs d made a request for treatment, was then offered a telephone consultation, following which she was asked in for an examination. So there is some activity in some GP surgeries. Is yours an exception? Or is ours?

[teamsaint]

So what would you propose instead ? All I hear from you is 'moan, moan, moan'. Covid exists. It kills. I really fail to understand why some folk find that so hard to understand and bitch about their 'freedoms' being eroded. To survive this, it's a collective responsibility. Trouble is, certainly in the 'liberal' West the 'I' is deemed more important than the 'Us'.

On a positive note, suggest your surgery gets into the 21st century. If I need a repeat prescription, I simply go online to the surgery and make the request. I then get a text from Boots when it's ready for collection.

I suggest they open up and treat people. And if the future is all online for everything we are in trouble.
And as for moaning, that really takes the biscuit.

I’m on the side of dealing with this , not hiding away for ever and a day. And if you can’t see the dangers to freedoms, then you need to open your eyes, which will help you see the enormous collateral damaage in health and economic ( and consequent health ) terms that is and has been caused by lockdown etc.Covid exists and it kills. And so do an awful lot of other things.
It’ a mess, but we can make choices in how we deal with it.

And just for once, could you cut out the personal abuse. Which is not the first time I have had to ask.

[teamsaint]

Are you sure that the surgery is only acting as a postbox for prescriptions. Ours seems similar, but mrs d made a request for treatment, was then offered a telephone consultation, following which she was asked in for an examination. So there is some activity in some GP surgeries. Is yours an exception? Or is ours?

No treatment at all at our branch, which is one of five, just prescriptions.

[DracoM]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/13/johnson-ignored-science-second-wave-sage-advice