Coronavirus: social, economic and other changes as a result of the pandemic

[french frank]

Just because using the pass sanitaire is “ easy” to use , for some people sometimes, really doesn't make it a great idea.
It is a terrible idea, and a huge and completely undesireable step change in the relationship between the state and the individual.

Accepting that argument totally, 100%, it still boils down to priorities. You have to be a rabid liberal to think there are no circumstances in which state intervention can trump individual freedom.

[oddoneout]

Just because using the pass sanitaire is “ easy” to use , for some people sometimes, really doesn't make it a great idea.
It is a terrible idea, and a huge and completely undesireable step change in the relationship between the state and the individual.
And it has absolutely no demonstrable public health benefit, as two parliamentary committees found. And that is before we get to the their discriminatory aspect.

Plenty of people are out and about in the UK and feeling “ safe”, and no doubt many in France who feel the opposite.

I may be wrong but from what I have read over the past 18 months France has managed the practical aspects of its various regulations pretty well, recognising early on that not everyone had a smart phone or access to a printer for the pass needed to be out and about during lockdown for instance (even if the attitude to that wasn't particularly pleasant), and so they are better placed to get the vaccine pass working. That is not the case here; if you don't have a smart phone life gets very difficult, and even if you do for far too many people there is still the additional hurdle that whatever interaction they are attempting founders because the other side of the exchange can't or won't accept the phone version. If government look-up sites don't work, are too slow or are not understood the answer will simply be "no".
On that basis alone there is no point, since it can't fully achieve the supposed aims, even before the other aspects are considered. However if there is money to be made for the right people then that over-rides every other consideration, and another layer of difficulty(other descriptions are available) is added to already friction-ridden lives. Selfishly perhaps I'm just glad that (for now at least) the situations in which the use of such an item might apply are not part of my life, so the lack of a "key to modern living" device isn't an issue.
This issue of incompetence and inability to deliver makes me wonder how effective the proposed temporary visa scheme for HGV drivers will be - and I'm not thinking here about whether it will achieve anything, just the basics of dealing with applications and getting the documentation(in what ever form) to the individual. Lack of capacity at the Home Office means something else will have to be put (even more) on hold - presumably those currently with their lives in limbo trying to sort out pre-settled/settled status.

[DracoM]

If you do not have a smart phone, frankly you are part of another tribe, race, and on another planet............or better still, you don't exist.
Reception in my area is VERY iffy indeed, so, guess what..?...........correct - I do not have / use one.

[french frank]

If you do not have a smart phone, frankly you are part of another tribe, race, and on another planet............or better still, you don't exist.
Reception in my area is VERY iffy indeed, so, guess what..?...........correct - I do not have / use one.

I'm not sure how this subject has invaded the Brexit thread, but from what I read, a paper certificate is avalable for those who don't have smartphones.

"Most covid passports introduced so far have been mobile phone apps that show a QR code or other evidence confirming vaccination status. Some have incorporated testing to minimise discrimination against those who have not been, or cannot be, vaccinated. In most cases it has also been possible to access a paper alternative to prevent digital exclusion for those without smartphones." (Institute of Government)

[oddoneout]

I'm not sure how this subject has invaded the Brexit thread, but from what I read, a paper certificate is avalable for those who don't have smartphones.

"Most covid passports introduced so far have been mobile phone apps that show a QR code or other evidence confirming vaccination status. Some have incorporated testing to minimise discrimination against those who have not been, or cannot be, vaccinated. In most cases it has also been possible to access a paper alternative to prevent digital exclusion for those without smartphones." (Institute of Government)

Getting a paper version of things isn't always straightforward if you don't have access to a printer. The closing of library and other community services hasn't helped that situation.

[cloughie]

Getting a paper version of things isn't always straightforward if you don't have access to a printer. The closing of library and other community services hasn't helped that situation.

Maybe I’m mistaken but I think you can get them through the post.

[teamsaint]

I'm not sure how this subject has invaded the Brexit thread, but from what I read, a paper certificate is avalable for those who don't have smartphones.

"Most covid passports introduced so far have been mobile phone apps that show a QR code or other evidence confirming vaccination status. Some have incorporated testing to minimise discrimination against those who have not been, or cannot be, vaccinated. In most cases it has also been possible to access a paper alternative to prevent digital exclusion for those without smartphones." (Institute of Government)

I was just picking up on a point Barbi made about his trip to France.

IMO , whatever system is put in place to get round the issue of smartphones not being universal, will be full of flaws and problems, even if the scheme has the best of intentions, which actually I think very unlikely. I encountered one such problem myself yesterday, which was unresolved.

What is the problem that is being solved by these schemes ? The simple answer is not to have them, most especially in the absence of any evidence of any public health benefit.

[kernelbogey]

Maybe I’m mistaken but I think you can get them through the post.

You are not mistaken - in the case of the NHS Covid Pass. (I just called 119 and it arrived with a few days.)

(Edit: I required it for foreign travel.)

[Barbirollians]

Getting a paper version of things isn't always straightforward if you don't have access to a printer. The closing of library and other community services hasn't helped that situation.

Ring 119 and they will send you a letter with your QR code on .

[Barbirollians]

Just because using the pass sanitaire is “ easy” to use , for some people sometimes, really doesn't make it a great idea.
It is a terrible idea, and a huge and completely undesireable step change in the relationship between the state and the individual.
And it has absolutely no demonstrable public health benefit, as two parliamentary committees found. And that is before we get to the their discriminatory aspect.

Plenty of people are out and about in the UK and feeling “ safe”, and no doubt many in France who feel the opposite.

The evidence from France and how much better Covid is under control than here suggests otherwise. I do not believe that liberty includes liberty to put others at risk - by all means choose not to be vaccinated but accept the consequences . Moreover, now it seems some EU countries have overtaken our vaccination rates.

There may well be other reasons why HGV drivers are leaving such as very poor conditions, lack of facilities , extremely long hours etc but the loss of EU drivers and the hard Brexit is overwhelmingly the main cause of our supply chain problems. And are we surprised so many left the appalling way EU workers have been demonised by the right in this country. It truly is turkeys not coming home for Christmas !!!

[teamsaint]

The evidence from France and how much better Covid is under control than here suggests otherwise. I do not believe that liberty includes liberty to put others at risk - by all means choose not to be vaccinated but accept the consequences . Moreover, now it seems some EU countries have overtaken our vaccination rates.

There may well be other reasons why HGV drivers are leaving such as very poor conditions, lack of facilities , extremely long hours etc but the loss of EU drivers and the hard Brexit is overwhelmingly the main cause of our supply chain problems. And are we surprised so many left the appalling way EU workers have been demonised by the right in this country. It truly is turkeys not coming home for Christmas !!!

HGV hours are governed by strict regulations as you know, which AFAICS are still exactly the same as in Europe.

There is zero evidence that the vaccine passports will have any public health benefit whatsoever. Comparisons between the rates of infection etc in France and here contains so many variables as to be worthless in terms of producing evidence of the value of vaccine passports.

There is no evidence at all that vaccine passports will enable the " liberty to infect others". And as is all too clear from govt figures, being vaccinated does not come close to stopping infection or transmission. Any idea that passports( especially based on "double vaccination only" as suggested by the Premier League and the RAH for example) will produce " safer" environments is an illusion, and a dangerous one at that, since access based on testing would be actually a safer option.
Helping people feel comfortable going out and about is laudable, doing it in the vaccine passport route is simply not based on evidence, and is potentially dangerous on its own terms. It is a nonsense.

[french frank]

There is zero evidence that the vaccine passports will have any public health benefit whatsoever. Comparisons between the rates of infection etc in France and here contains so many variables as to be worthless in terms of producing evidence of the value of vaccine passports.

Who was it said, ""Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"?

Do you have an alternative to a) passports or b) ignoring the problem (What problem?) on the grounds that the health risks aren't worth not getting life back to normal (going to the pub, going to a nightclub or football match) as soon as possible?

[teamsaint]

Who was it said, ""Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"?

Do you have an alternative to a) passports or b) ignoring the problem (What problem?) on the grounds that the health risks aren't worth not getting life back to normal (going to the pub, going to a nightclub or football match) as soon as possible?

I can only ask again, " what problem will this solve ?". Nobody has produced any evidence that passports will have any public health benefit, where transmission is seen as "The Problem". Two parliamentary committees this year found no justification for them. If there was good evidence, or indeed any evidence, we can be sure that the govt would be quoting it widely.

Whatever need there may be to reduce transmission will not be positively affected by them. And the " double vaccinated only with no testing" option for VPs ( as has been suggested by the RAH and Premier League) will if anything likely make transmission more widespread, since there will be no check on the current status of the vaccinated, whilst allowing them unfettered access. It is nonsense, logically.

There has to be real evidence of , at least, public health benefit before we set off down this very dangerous road.
And there isn't any.

The alternative is to offer the vaccines as widely as possible to those who want them, ( adults) and then allow people to make their own judgements on safety and behaviour, as we always do. We might argue about some kinds of mitigations being kept in place ( EG masks) but they don't IMO have the same kind of long terms dangers that vaccine passports/Digital ID do.

Questioning these kind of developments is absolutely fundamental to a democratic process. Why on earth would we not question them with the greatest possible rigour ?

[french frank]

I can only ask again,

Yes, you're repeating yourself. I suggested two options, a) or b) and asked if you had an alternative. The evidence of 'superspreader events' is surely well enough documented, with evidence? Even if passports aren't by any means a complete solution - and they aren't, is a) a better course or b)? Or is there c) some other solution?

[teamsaint]

Yes, you're repeating yourself. I suggested two options, a) or b) and asked if you had an alternative. The evidence of 'superspreader events' is surely well enough documented, with evidence? Even if passports aren't by any means a complete solution - and they aren't, is a) a better course or b)? Or is there c) some other solution?

I did suggest a ( my) solution FF. Widespread offer of the vaccination, some mitigations ( which is another matter really) and then allowing people to make their own decisions.

Events are either safe enough to go ahead, or they aren't . There is no evidence, or even a strong case that has been made, that vaccine passports will make any difference to transmission, and if implemented badly they may well make things worse rather than better.

I don't know of another " solution" that I think would be satisfactory. I'm all ears though.