Coronavirus: social, economic and other changes as a result of the pandemic

[greenilex]

Very soon they will be able to count the hairs on our heads and the masks in our pockets, as well as pinpointing our exact location. Call me paranoid?

[teamsaint]

Very soon they will be able to count the hairs on our heads and the masks in our pockets, as well as pinpointing our exact location. Call me paranoid?

Well you can join me , ( or can I join you ) in the paranoid group.

Just in case anybody missed it, there was a good piece on erosion of liberties under cover of covid by John Harris in the Guardian recently .
Sadly, the opposition in parliament( what opposition, what parliament you might ask) are terribly quiet on the whole thing.

[oddoneout]

I don’t think that hoping that this government’s incompetence will save us from some of the very nasty agendas that are rearing their heads ( not suggesting you are, Odders) is going to be enough, not least since the Labour party seems to have lost it, and in any case has its own authoritarian streak.

I can’t see that the police have any place in this matter at all , unless other laws are being broken.

'Fraid I was just being sarcastic with my first thought ts.
I haven't gone down the paranoia route(yet) as the things that concern me are there in plain sight and visible to others as well, but I can't help thinking that this gradual battening down of the populace under cover of Covid is a not unwelcome outcome for the current administration in view of the 'difficulties' that are inevitable come January.

[Globaltruth]

On the other hand compare that well known denier of liberty China

https://www.newsweek.com/china-coronavirus-six-months-pandemic-beat-virus-1532874

and that well known libertarian NZ

https://news.fiu.edu/2020/the-pandemic-roadmap-how-new-zealand-beat-covid-19

What do they have in common?
Well, a working Test and Trace is certainly a big part of the solution.
From the second article:

“(They) decided to act early, to communicate really well with the public, and were very clear about what we were going to do, how we were going to do it, and what was coming so people could plan, so they didn’t have to panic by not know what was going to happen next week.”

"next week" or, indeed, as here, next day/hour/minute.

[teamsaint]

'Fraid I was just being sarcastic with my first thought ts.
I haven't gone down the paranoia route(yet) as the things that concern me are there in plain sight and visible to others as well, but I can't help thinking that this gradual battening down of the populace under cover of Covid is a not unwelcome outcome for the current administration in view of the 'difficulties' that are inevitable come January.

I did pick up the point you were trying to make.
I’m not sure why people wouldn’t treat threats to liberty, freedom, via use of data or any other mechanism with the utmost seriousness. Aren’t they in plain sight too ? Things may be done under cover of the other dangers that we face, but that doesn’t make them any less significant.
The liberal left needs to be very careful not to leave this as an issue that can best be exploited by others.

[Bryn]

Today's "Start the Week" is well worth catching re the issues discussed here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000nlkg

It should soon become available, on demand, via Sounds.

[oddoneout]

I did pick up the point you were trying to make.
I’m not sure why people wouldn’t treat threats to liberty, freedom, via use of data or any other mechanism with the utmost seriousness. Aren’t they in plain sight too ? Things may be done under cover of the other dangers that we face, but that doesn’t make them any less significant.
The liberal left needs to be very careful not to leave this as an issue that can best be exploited by others.

I wonder if it's part of the general human nature capability to ignore things which it doesn't suit the individual, for what ever reason, to see or act upon? Although I should be used to it I am still surprised at the way otherwise intelligent acquaintances don't bother about where their personal details are going and, even though it is now much easier to do so, don't take the option to block 'sharing' of data. I was astonished to find recently that several of my colleagues don't bother to view their payslips. Now that they are all online they are admittedly a pain to access for various reasons(the latest tweak means that I can't save a downloaded copy), but as casual seasonal workers with 3 different paycodes applicable to our pay I don't take it for granted that the monthly payments are correct. If you start from that level of indifference then a great deal can be foisted on folk without protest? Added to that aspect is the resignation factor, powerless in the face of bodies that won't and don't listen - "well I can't do anything about it".

[Dave2002]

This article about monitoring student attendance to online lectures shows a matter of concern - https://www.wired.co.uk/article/univ...ent-monitoring.

I have never been a fan of very close monitoring of students - such as insisting on keeping a register of attendance at lectures - but before Covid I know that some universities felt that this was necessary. There are big issues about students, and the nature of student groups, as these are now a significant proportion of young people. Not all students are motivated or very able, but what should be done about that? Some may have real problems which could be addressed if spotted in time, but does that mean that universities should have monitoring tools to check up on all the activity for each individual student?

There are big issues here - moral as well as practical - and my feeling is that using technology - or perhaps abusing the use of technology - can do much more harm than good - for what purpose, and to benefit whom?

[oddoneout]

This article about monitoring student attendance to online lectures shows a matter of concern - https://www.wired.co.uk/article/univ...ent-monitoring.

I have never been a fan of very close monitoring of students - such as insisting on keeping a register of attendance at lectures - but before Covid I know that some universities felt that this was necessary. There are big issues about students, and the nature of student groups, as these are now a significant proportion of young people. Not all students are motivated or very able, but what should be done about that? Some may have real problems which could be addressed if spotted in time, but does that mean that universities should have monitoring tools to check up on all the activity for each individual student?

There are big issues here - moral as well as practical - and my feeling is that using technology - or perhaps abusing the use of technology - can do much more harm than good - for what purpose, and to benefit whom?

I suppose at one level it is preparing students for the world of work and non-work. One of the concerns that is surfacing about working from home is the degree to which employers intrude on the home environment to make sure their staff are keeping noses to the grindstone, something which is taken for granted within the workplace. Those without jobs are expected to jump through similar hoops to claim their pittance.
Cynicism aside it is a difficult balancing act I suspect and one not helped by the vastly increased size of the student population. At one level trying to keep some sort of track of engagement with learning can help prevent students falling behind or struggling with other issues for want of timely support, but that could all too easily tip into intrusion and lack of flexibility about outcomes while also missing signs of genuine and serious issues so long as the academic tick-boxes are completed. Assignments completed and 'handed in' for assessment is surely the way to monitor if the necessary work is being done? Even in 'normal' times not every student(or anything like!) will maintain a steady pattern of work to complete essays etc; dealing with deadlines is a valuable life lesson.
As always there is the point that just because something is possible ( in this case high level,possibly intrusive surveillance) doesn't mean that it should be done.

[teamsaint]

Interesting news from the horses mouth today. Our ( really excellent but pretty expensive ) private dentist tells us that he is over run with NHS patients being referred, because in order to get their “full contract value”, NHS dentists are being required to only fulfill a minimum of 20% of their usual workload.

Section 4 is the relevant bit , I think.

https://bda.org/advice/Coronavirus/Pages/financial-impact.aspx

[Dave2002]

One of the concerns that is surfacing about working from home is the degree to which employers intrude on the home environment to make sure their staff are keeping noses to the grindstone, something which is taken for granted within the workplace.

Depends!

I suppose I was always very disruptive, and would go for weeks without doing much, but then within a relatively short period of time produce something which made a major impact on projects. Was it wrong that I was allowed to do that? I don't know.

I would probably not have coped with someone continually asking me "what I was doing". Another of my friends may have been similar, though I don't know how he got on at work, but he did get to be fairly senior. He said something about treating his bosses like on a mushroom farm. When they asked how projects were going he said the way was to "keep them in the dark, and feed them manure."

My strategy didn't make me very rich, but it did make some of the people I was working with or for into millionaires, when such people were rarer than they are now. I didn't generally do work I didn't like, and money wasn't the main motivator most of the time.

[oddoneout]

Far too many people have to work in an environment where they are essentially not trusted to do their work unless subject to supervision, whether justified or not. Much of the current WFH set-up could have happened years ago if not for the layer of management whose only reason for existing seems to be keeping an eye on employees on the assumption they can't be trusted not to diddle the employer, which has the potential to become self-fulfilling of course. Employees become adept at looking as if they are working.The thought of not being able to see what employees are up to is anathema, and if the employee manages to get the work done at home in less time and/or possibly to a better standard, that isn't seen as a good thing. The possibility that not all the time spent in the office is productive doesn't enter into consideration. When my daughter started working in offices she often finished her work well before the allotted period because she had an eye for organisation and efficient use of time, and she hated having to stay put filling in time doing non-work activities and trying to stave off boredom.

[Dave2002]

There was a time when there were no computers, and desks or tables had drawers. I knew people who had books in their drawers, and they could read whole novels in a few days at work - and still appear to be working. If anyone came in to check, the drawers were closed quietly and quickly. Some of them probably got the work they were supposed to be doing done as well.

One other concern is that reading and thinking are often not perceived as being work - one has to be seen to be "doing" something. It took me many years to fathom that one and counter it. Possibly many people don't achieve that.

[teamsaint]

The government has just handed huge chunks of economy of England over to the supermarkets and Amazon for one of the busiest months of the year, at the end of a disastrous year.
We should all think very carefully where we spend our money over the next two months, if we don’t want future choice very badly eroded.
Sadly in my work world, power will concentrat even further in the hands of those with the deepest pockets, and access to the supermarket shelves.

For books there are great ( and great value) alternatives to the tax dodgers at Amazon, such as Waterstones Click and Collect, Hive, independent onliners such as Books etc and A Great Read . Wordery is now part or Waterstones, and do remember that Book Depository is an Amazon company.
The newly launching Bookshop .org , which similar to Hive is another way of supporting your local indie bookshop while getting a good price.

[Pulcinella]

Any idea what percentage Amazon takes/makes on a Kindle sale, ts?
All I could find after a quick Google search seemed to relate to self-publishing.