Statues

[MrGongGong]

On that basis the Germans could put up a statue of Adolf Hitler in recognition of his creation of a fine motorway system.

Quite

[Bryn]

Abolition of Slavery within British Empire following a long hard-fought campaign, 1833. Statue of slave-trader Colson in Bristol created and erected, 1895. QED.

[oddoneout]

I think the Bristol statue was put up many years after his death as a symbol in the same way the North Korean ones were.

So how about a statue of Jimmy Savile ?
To commemorate his charitable deeds rather than the other things ?

Or how about one to celebrate the many people who were successfully treated by Harold Shipman ?

What is a suitable interval of time to wait ?

The idea that some folks have put forward is that it is somehow "erasing history" really is nonsense.
How many people are there who have spent hours and hours researching history as a result ?

And there is much history that was never recorded in the first place as the subjects were not deemed of interest or sufficiently worthy... Something that once existed is likely to leave traces of some kind, that which never existed is rather more difficult to find, and even more open to error.

[oddoneout]

This should be welcome news, albeit of the 'at last, better late then never' variety

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/23/uk-government-to-act-on-all-30-windrush-recommendations

Except that - it is an announcement by Tory Minister
- the Minister in question is Priti Patel

[Count Boso]

On that basis the Germans could put up a statue of Adolf Hitler in recognition of his creation of a fine motorway system.

No.That would have not been the same basis. They would need to put up the monument knowing full well that he had been responsible for murdering 6 million Jews. Just as the monument to Saville's charity needed to be put up after it was established that he had a been a horrific, hypocritical sexual predator.

Even in 1895, post slavery, I don't think there was recognition that the men sitting in England, well away from the slave raiders, slave transporters and slave owners who together carried out the vile business, were in any way complicit in an abomination. I have memories of my own childhood, singing now expurgated words to "The Sun Has Got His Hat On" and dearly loving one of my now controversial soft toys. But please don't tell me I was a racist then. I was a child who has grown up, just as one hopes humanity - or at least an influentional section of it - has grown up.

The argument is not whether these relics of a past age should be taken down (I believe it's best that they are), it is about imputing motivations to people who lived in a different age.

[Bryn]

No.That would have not been the same basis. They would need to put up the monument knowing full well that he had been responsible for murdering 6 million Jews. Just as the monument to Saville's charity needed to be put up after it was established that he had a been a horrific, hypocritical sexual predator.

Even in 1895, post slavery, I don't think there was recognition that the men sitting in England, well away from the slave raiders, slave transporters and slave owners who together carried out the vile business, were in any way complicit in an abomination. I have memories of my own childhood, singing now expurgated words to "The Sun Has Got His Hat On" and dearly loving one of my now controversial soft toys. But please don't tell me I was a racist then. I was a child who has grown up, just as one hopes humanity - or at least an influentional section of it - has grown up.

The argument is not whether these relics of a past age should be taken down (I believe it's best that they are), it is about imputing motivations to people who lived in a different age.

I suggest you investigate the history of the Golliwog. It was not originally conceived of as in any way antagonistic towards black people. Quite the opposite, in fact. It was very much Enid Blyton who was to blame for its racist connotation. In early junior school in Sydenham, my best friend was a boy who came over from Jamaica to join his parents who had come as part of the 'Windrush generation'. We used to gleefully swap Roberson's Golliwog stickers as we each aimed to expand our collections of enameled badges. He had a rather greater variety than I had and wore them with pride. Sadly, after we both moved saparately to Swindon, his parent banned him from further contact with me when they, as JWs, discovered I had joined a 'military organisation'. the Cubs.

[Count Boso]

I suggest you investigate the history of the Golliwog. It was not originally conceived of as in any way antagonistic towards black people.

Exactly so. With his brightly coloured jacket and trousers, he belonged to that make-believe world of Rupert Bear, with his pullover, scarf and trousers, Edward Trunk and Algy Pug. It's only now, with what it has come to symbolise, that golly has to be expelled. It's the same with various terms which are now considered unacceptable - because they've been uttered with contempt, venom and hatred. The names are just words: it's what they have come to represent with the passage of time and by how they have been used, and the hurt which they consequently cause to people that dictates their elimination from our language. And an understanding of what is meant when they are deliberately used.

Quite the opposite, in fact. It was very much Enid Blyton who was to blame for its racist connotation. In early junior school in Sydenham, my best friend was a boy who came over from Jamaica to join his parents who had come as part of the 'Windrush generation'. We used to gleefully swap Roberson's Golliwog stickers as we each aimed to expand our collections of enameled badges. He had a rather greater variety than I had and wore them with pride. Sadly, after we both moved saparately to Swindon, his parent banned him from further contact with me when they, as JWs, discovered I had joined a 'military organisation'. the Cubs.

Thank you. An interesting illustration of how things change, both with the times and from the perspective of people with very different experiences of life.

[Andrew]

[/QUOTE]

At least we are able to discuss these statues and their relevance and significance to our present lives. Citizens of "The Democratic People's Republic Of Korea" (to give North Korea its full title) cannot have such discussions.... By the way, I've stood precisely where those bowed people are, on an interesting holiday.....

As a rough guide, any country including the word "Democratic" in its name invariably isn't! Examples are The German Democratic Republic, The Popular Democratic Republic of Algeria and, of course, North Korea.

[Padraig]

You can include the USA's Democratic Party (possibly not a country) which has a rather twisted concept of democracy.

Too, too cynical, Boilk! For a start they are anti-Trump; and they do have Bernie, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the Squad and some new Progressives coming through. And, dare I say, Nancy Pelosi is one tough cookie!

[Richard Barrett]

Too, too cynical, Boilk! For a start they are anti-Trump; and they do have Bernie, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the Squad and some new Progressives coming through. And, dare I say, Nancy Pelosi is one tough cookie!

If the Democratic Party were really democratic it wouldn't have been possible in 2016 for Sanders' candidacy to be blocked by the DNC in favour of Hillary Clinton, who then went on to fight a mediocre campaign and lose. A "Democratic" party would be one whose policies weren't so skewed towards serving corporate rather than democratic interests (for example when it comes to health provision or the insane amounts of money spent on the military). As for being anti-Trump that is a pretty low bar to jump over!

[Padraig]

If the Democratic Party were really democratic it wouldn't have been possible in 2016 for Sanders' candidacy to be blocked by the DNC in favour of Hillary Clinton, who then went on to fight a mediocre campaign and lose. A "Democratic" party would be one whose policies weren't so skewed towards serving corporate rather than democratic interests (for example when it comes to health provision or the insane amounts of money spent on the military). As for being anti-Trump that is a pretty low bar to jump over!

Well Richard there are Parties and then there's Politics. Somewhere along the way the politics always spoils the party. Still we all hope to do better next time, and though beating Trump may appear to be a miserable aim, he won in 2016 to general consternation. Remember?

[Serial_Apologist]

Well Richard there are Parties and then there's Politics. Somewhere along the way the politics always spoils the party. Still we all hope to do better next time, and though beating Trump may appear to be a miserable aim, he won in 2016 to general consternation. Remember?

Well the state of the Democratic Party had something to do with that, as well as the huge backlog of unresolved issues couched in the loaded terms of "politics".

I see Bristol Council has taken down that statue, and placed it in its museum for collection by its creator. There was an interesting discussion on Jeremy Vine this morning on CH5, arguments ranging from that set protocols for putting up monuments and the like had not been followed in its installation, and the "people of Bristol" should have been consulted a priori - for which purposes Bristol CC is to establish a subgroup charged with fully investigating Bristol history in relation to slavery - to the view that an unofficial statue rightly marking an issue of pressing importance is preferable to Colston's, which had been standing for 100+ years.

[oddoneout]

Well the state of the Democratic Party had something to do with that, as well as the huge backlog of unresolved issues couched in the loaded terms of "politics".

I see Bristol Council has taken down that statue, and placed it in its museum for collection by its creator. There was an interesting discussion on Jeremy Vine this morning on CH5, arguments ranging from that set protocols for putting up monuments and the like had not been followed in its installation, and the "people of Bristol" should have been consulted a priori - for which purposes Bristol CC is to establish a subgroup charged with fully investigating Bristol history in relation to slavery - to the view that an unofficial statue rightly marking an issue of pressing importance is preferable to Colston's, which had been standing for 100+ years.

No, it was put up quickly with no disruption to the city (roads and footpaths closed etc during the working day) and

Quinn and his team said they had gone through exactly the same safety assessment that they would have done on a commissioned piece. The artist said it was “not a permanent artwork”, but it had been placed in such a way that it would be “extremely difficult to move”.

. So probably at least as safe as anything officially put up. At least it hasn't been destroyed and there can be a discussion about its future which, one hopes will include the views of the people of Bristol.

[LHC]

Too, too cynical, Boilk! For a start they are anti-Trump; and they do have Bernie, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the Squad and some new Progressives coming through. And, dare I say, Nancy Pelosi is one tough cookie!

Bernie Sanders is not a member of the Democrats; he is an independent (indeed, the longest serving independent in the Senate). One of the oddities of the US system is that you don’t have to be a member of either the Democrats or the Republicans to stand as their candidate for the President.

[johnb]

No, it was put up quickly with no disruption to the city (roads and footpaths closed etc during the working day) and . So probably at least as safe as anything officially put up. At least it hasn't been destroyed and there can be a discussion about its future which, one hopes will include the views of the people of Bristol.

I was ambivalent about the Marc Quinn stature but am very disappointed that it has been removed so quickly.

It seems that there were protests from the BAME community (or perhaps more accurately some of the BAME community) about it being a sculpture by a white, rich, famous artist from outside Bristol instead of by a local BAME artist.

Anyway, if the past is anything to go by, the council will eventually erect something mediocre that will truly unite the people of Bristol .... in disappointment.