Statues

[Padraig]

"What do you do when democracy fails you?"

There is no point in demonstrating, writing to MPs, organising petitions etc for many things... this is a case in point.
Folks had been doing all of that with no effect

I seems to me, MrGG, that this time demonstrations were at last having the long awaited effect, certainly in America. The lynching of George Floyd released dormant feelings of revulsion world wide and in telling numbers. There is the expected resistance, but even more a determined resolve among the huge crowds in every American state, growing by the day and so far - Winning. The Bristol episode is now seen as the lynching of a statue - that's the takeaway. What a shame to imitate the worst practices of Jim Crow as a show of solidarity with black lives.

[Count Boso]

Sorry to be picky but it would be good if she bothered to get her facts straight (admittedly I am only using wikipedia as a reference).

Edward Colston didn't retire to Bristol when he left the Royal African Company in 1692. He was already carrying out his business activities from Mortlake, Surrey where he died in 1721, after retiring in 1708.

There seems to have been a great deal of 'people quoting people' in the last few days, one gets it wrong and the next six get it wrong and it goes down in the record book as fact. I read Kate Williams (didn't know her) with her Twitter thread detailing the sins of Colston: he was 'involved', he invested, he 'took an active role. Some other historian said he 'oversaw' the transportations. The term 'slave trader' to me suggests someone with ships which set out for, say, West Africa, collected a load of black men, women and children (in this case) and then took them over the Atlantic. Colston had ships, he traded with them, but he didn't trade in slaves with them. His involvement was that he became a Member of the Royal African Company, invested in shares and was for a very brief time Deputy Governor (for a year or two before leaving the company after a total of 11 years). His own ships could not have traded in slaves, since the RAC held the monopoly and his own trading was predominantly carried out before he joined the RAC. If investing in the RAC be a sin, cast out the works of Samuel Pepys and the Enlightenment philosopher John Locke. And though far be it from me to to encourage criminal damage, maybe the the founder of the RAC, the future King James II should end up in the Trafalgar Square duckpond.

[johnb]

....very interesting....I know the issue of statue has gone on for 50 years....BMV very involved in education....

In fairness, the Merchant Venturers, via their historian Francis Greenacre, made sustained objections to the initial wording of the proposed plaque which concentrated almost entirely on Colston's role in slave trading and, in one version, included that EC was a member of the Society of Merchant Venturers. I understand this was the original proposal:

From 1680-1692, Bristol-born merchant, Edward Colston was a high official of the Royal African Company which had the monopoly on the British slave trade until 1698. Colston played an active role in the enslavement of over 84,000 Africans (including 12,000 children) of whom over 19,000 died en route to the Caribbean and America. He also invested in the Spanish slave trade and in slave-produced sugar. Much of his fortune was made from slavery and as Tory MP for Bristol (1710-1713), he defended the city’s ’right’ to trade in enslaved Africans.

Local people who did not subscribe to his religious and political beliefs were not permitted to benefit from his charities.

The Merchant Venturers (via Francis Greenacre) proposed a revised wording without consulting other interested parties. It attempted to swing the balance the other way.

Edward Colston, 1636-1721, MP for Bristol 1710-1713, was one of this city’s greatest benefactors.

“He supported and endowed schools, almshouses, hospitals and churches in Bristol, London and elsewhere. Many of his charitable foundations continue. This statue was erected in 1895 to commemorate his philanthropy.

“A significant proportion of Colston’s wealth came from investments in slave trading, sugar and other slave-produced goods.

“As an official of the Royal African Company from 1680 to 1692, he was also involved in the transportation of approximately 84,000 enslaved African men, women and young children, of whom 19,000 died on voyages from West Africa to the Caribbean and the Americas.”

The Bristol Mayor didn't accept their wording .... and so the dispute went on.

A plague on both their houses.

[Count Boso]

The Bristol episode is now seen as the lynching of a statue - that's the takeaway. What a shame to imitate the worst practices of Jim Crow as a show of solidarity with black lives.

Some might think it was also a shame to divert attention away from what is happening now where things can be changed for the better and focusing on what happened 300 years ago where they can't.

[Bryn]

Some might think it was also a shame to divert attention away from what is happening now where things can be changed for the better and focusing on what happened 300 years ago where they can't.

Others might consider highlighting the link between the history of slavery with today's racism to be entirly apposite.

[Joseph K]

Others might consider highlighting the link between the history of slavery with today's racism to be entirly apposite.

[MrGongGong]

Some might think it was also a shame to divert attention away from what is happening now where things can be changed for the better and focusing on what happened 300 years ago where they can't.

I know what you mean
Isn't it time we told all those Jewish people to "get over" what happened in WW2 while we are at it ?

(I wasn't suggesting that you were saying that BUT it's not for those who aren't the victims of terrible things to set timescales IMV)

[Count Boso]

(I wasn't suggesting that you were saying that BUT it's not for those who aren't the victims of terrible things to set timescales IMV)

Thank you for your understanding! No, I wasn't suggesting that one should forget about the era of the black slave trade, nor the periodic outbreaks of slaughter of Jews in this country or anywhere. Nor the burning of Catholics. But my own ancestry has individual members of a persecuted minority, not killed but constantly attacked. I'm not sure that 280 years later I feel myself to have been a 'victim' of that persecution nor do I feel I need an apology from the current descendants of the persecutors.

All the matters are very complex and intertwined. But the black people in this country have more immediate reasons for anger against racism than the slave trade. Windrush, the Bristol (yes that place again) Bus Colour Bar, the landladies with their window notices 'No Coloureds'. There is a generation of black people, still alive now, people who came to this country of their own volition for a better life, for whom such experiences as this must be still raw and painful. How can you compare the shame that we should feel over this with the events of a now distant past?

[MrGongGong]

Thank you for your understanding! No, I wasn't suggesting that one should forget about the era of the black slave trade, nor the periodic outbreaks of slaughter of Jews in this country or anywhere. Nor the burning of Catholics. But my own ancestry has individual members of a persecuted minority, not killed but constantly attacked. I'm not sure that 280 years later I feel myself to have been a 'victim' of that persecution nor do I feel I need an apology from the current descendants of the persecutors.

All the matters are very complex and intertwined. But the black people in this country have more immediate reasons for anger against racism than the slave trade. Windrush, the Bristol (yes that place again) Bus Colour Bar, the landladies with their window notices 'No Coloureds'. There is a generation of black people, still alive now, people who came to this country of their own volition for a better life, for whom such experiences as this must be still raw and painful. How can you compare the shame that we should feel over this with the events of a now distant past?

I think the statue (and the name) has huge resonance for people in that place.
The fact that even after many years of campaigning and "doing things the right way" nothing changed means that people simply wanted rid

so they chucked it in the docks

A small victory in a long struggle IMV

[jayne lee wilson]

Thank you for your understanding! No, I wasn't suggesting that one should forget about the era of the black slave trade, nor the periodic outbreaks of slaughter of Jews in this country or anywhere. Nor the burning of Catholics. But my own ancestry has individual members of a persecuted minority, not killed but constantly attacked. I'm not sure that 280 years later I feel myself to have been a 'victim' of that persecution nor do I feel I need an apology from the current descendants of the persecutors.

All the matters are very complex and intertwined. But the black people in this country have more immediate reasons for anger against racism than the slave trade. Windrush, the Bristol (yes that place again) Bus Colour Bar, the landladies with their window notices 'No Coloureds'. There is a generation of black people, still alive now, people who came to this country of their own volition for a better life, for whom such experiences as this must be still raw and painful. How can you compare the shame that we should feel over this with the events of a now distant past?

Have you felt any effects of prejudice in your own life, though?

My own nascent academic career was ruined by LGBTQ phobias and discriminations of the time. I never really got over that.
When the Margaret Thatcher statue was decapitated, I felt like cheering and crying, and wished that performance artist had gone much further. None of us could forgive or forget Section 28; a definitive symbol of all that was wrong. You remember how long it took to repeal that?

So you understand the intensity of my identifications with the oppressed. The killing of George Floyd has been a catalyst, a focus and an inspiration; one of its effects was the decades-of-frustration-fuelled, yet spontaneously creative, controlled violence of the pulling down of the Colston Memorial to Inhumanity, Death and Greed.

You can't expect all the worldwide reactions and responses to be characterised by restraint or politesse...

[Count Boso]

Have you felt any effects of prejudice in your own life, though?

No, I'm too nondescript to attract any sort of attention. I had a friend who worked for MI6 and he said I'd have made a good spy because I could just walk in anywhere and no one would notice me.

I think the statue (and the name) has huge resonance for people in that place.
The fact that even after many years of campaigning and "doing things the right way" nothing changed means that people simply wanted rid

so they chucked it in the docks

A small victory in a long struggle IMV

I suppose my own reaction is that I can put the slave trade itself more easily into its historical context, along with other past atrocities, than I can more recent events. So I wonder whether Colston (whatever he did or didn't do) and by association the slave trade have become tangible substitutes for what people are suffering now in their own lives, at least in this country. Just a theory, because whereas the persecution of the Jews in medieval times and the Holocaust had very similar motivations, the slave trade and modern racism seem like two different phenomena.

[MrGongGong]

I suppose my own reaction is that I can put the slave trade itself more easily into its historical context, along with other past atrocities, than I can more recent events..

This from a friend on FB quoting Moazzam Begg

When I first met Clive Stafford Smith - my lawyer in Guantanamo - I looked at the shackles I was wearing and said:

"You know what me, you and these shackles have in common? We were all Made in England."
But that wasn't the shocking part. These shackles were made in my home city of Birmingham by a company called Hiatts. That was surprising but not shocking either. What really sent a shiver down my spine was that Hiatts used to supply "n****r collars" to slave owners and traders in America since the 18th century and they were still in business providing shackles to the US military to torture and detain us without trial.

These collars were used on slaves who had been caught after escaping their masters. This was also the first time in history the term "rendition" was used in this way. The escaped slaves were captured by "slave patrols" and rendered back to their owners. Many of these slave patrols went on to become America's first police officers.

When I came back from Gitmo I went to confront the company owners in Great Barr, but they refused to speak to me. Soon after, they closed down and moved to America where they still provide shackles for US police and prisons. They sell a huge array of merchandise including leg irons, chain gang irons and even Russian thumb cuffs.

Following Hiatt's closure in the UK, The Times lamented how British police, who they also supplied, complained that they may have to be more 'restrained' (pun unintended) when making arrests due to potential supply shortage. However, we know that has never been a problem in Britian.

I don't know if George Floyd was cuffed with Hiatts' shackles but there is little doubt that this company that profited from the rendition, torture and imprisonment of slaves continued to do so during the War on Terror.

And, if that wasn't enough, the parent holding company of Hiatt-Thompson is also Britain's biggest dealer in death and arms. BAE systems.

[Dave2002]

This from a friend on FB quoting Moazzam Begg ....

And, if that wasn't enough, the parent holding company of Hiatt-Thompson is also Britain's biggest dealer in death and arms. BAE systems.

There is mention of "Britain's biggest dealer in death and arms. BAE systems" quoted in that previous post.

It is true that BAE systems is a very large, possibly the largest, defence contractor in Europe, but they are also involved in civil aviation, and the avionics required to fly planes safely. Trying to label things, people and organisations - even whole countries as "obviously bad", doesn't always work, as some aspects may be perfectly reasonable, and in fact "good". I don't know what the balance is in the case of BAE systems, but I will investigate further.

https://www.baesystems.com/en/what-we-do/air

[MrGongGong]

There is mention of "Britain's biggest dealer in death and arms. BAE systems" quoted in that previous post.

It is true that BAE systems is a very large, possibly the largest, defence contractor in Europe, but they are also involved in civil aviation, and the avionics required to fly planes safely. Trying to label things, people and organisations - even whole countries as "obviously bad", doesn't always work, as some aspects may be perfectly reasonable, and in fact "good". I don't know what the balance is in the case of BAE systems, but I will investigate further.

https://www.baesystems.com/en/what-we-do/air

I know what you mean
Sir Jimmy Savile for example ?
raised lots of money for charity

Or do you mean something else ?

[Count Boso]

Trying to label things, people and organisations - even whole countries as "obviously bad", doesn't always work, as some aspects may be perfectly reasonable, and in fact "good".

Or a social reformer by the name of Colston? There are occasions when individuals should NOT be scapegoated, and it should be recognised that if the individual was "evil" so was the age. Colston, a merchant and trader, did not trade in slaves. He was an official in a private company which did - a company founded by a charter of the King and run by his brother, a future King. Shareholders were "the great and the good" and not in ignorance of what the company was trading in. Can we even attribute this to the barbarity of white people inflicted on black people? No. Where on earth do people think the slaves were found? Sunbathing on the coast of West Africa, just where the slaving ships docked? They were sold as slaves in the African slave markets having been marched sometimes over long distances across the Sahara - journeys on which many died. At least 'Honest Ed' was buying and selling his goods whereas the black African slavers were selling stolen goods, men, women and children whom they had forcibly removed from their villages.

Slavery had been endemic in Africa for centuries and was even 'racialised'. I have a feeling that the complicity of black traders is discreetly swept under the carpet by white liberals because they fear being accused of trying to shift the blame for their own brutality. We shouldn't shift the blame, but we should share it.

I've often wondered what evil, in 100 years time our generation will be accused of. It's time were were honest about the fact that each generation commits its own crimes and stop picking and choosing who we blame.