Statues

[oddoneout]

I think there were effectively slaves in England from really quite early times, and many were in London, though this is perhaps not highlighted so much nowadays. Some may have been treated quite well, while others were clearly not. The fact that they were taken from their own lands and brought to other countries and treated as property, to be bought and sold, and dumped overboard if they became troublesome, and split off from their family members, is utterly shameful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_African_presence_in_London

https://www.bookdepository.com/From-.../9780470028322 There are books too.

Serfs and thralls come to mind.
Is there not also an awkward issue around the part native Africans themselves played in supplying slaves to the white traders? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade
I was interested to see in that article that

While the first Africans kidnapped to the English colonies were classified as indentured servants, with a similar legal standing as contract-based workers coming from Britain and Ireland, by the middle of the 17th century, slavery had hardened as a racial caste

[vinteuil]

" The philistines are denouncing the performance artists with the ignorance of ages. "

... well that is just fatuous rubbish.

I do not approve of mob violence. "The ignorance of ages" - o pshaw, go back and look at what happened during the Terror.

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[jayne lee wilson]

... well that is just fatuous rubbish.

I do not approve of mob violence. "The ignorance of ages" - o pshaw, go back and look at what happened during the Terror.

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And your reply is thoughtless, unimaginative, artistically ignorant and needlessly offensive.... talk about selective quotation....
Ever heard of the philosophical concept of Redescription?

Looks nice outside..I'm outta here..... back to the garden for me....

[eighthobstruction]

mob = crowd....similar words that over lap....for myself the crowd has a more organised feel, and the Bristol crowd had an organised safety conscious element as they stood back away from danger....NVDA

Yes vinteuil....philistines in the context is the one word out of place...

[vinteuil]

And your reply is thoughtless, unimaginative, ignorant and needlessly offensive.... talk about selective quotation....

... I am sorry, Jayne, if you found my remark offensive - my irritation was of course not aimed at you but at "Dr Neil Faulkner, Archaeologist and historian" who (needlessly, offensively, thoughtlessly, unimaginatively, ignorantly) deemed "philistines" those who are seriously disturbed by the actions of a mob who think they are right taking control of a situation. It is surely the mark of a historically-informed sensibility to be aware of how dangerous such a stance can be. Perhaps I have been too long immersed in thinking about the French Revolution...

[Count Boso]

Trying to be thoughtful here: if the black community in Bristol now feel the air is sweeter, that a painful weight has been lifted from them, that is a good outcome. They should feel at home and comfortable in their city.

But, I would like the powerful movement that has been unleashed to concentrate now on positives and the future, not against racism, against white supremacy, against the shameful deeds of the past. What is needed is equality, fairness and justice, shared privilege, wealth and power. It was equality of opportunity that gave the US Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell and Barack Obama, all with the education (and consequent lack of hang-ups?) that they needed to succeed.

Ironically, I've just seen an example of a form of 'white supremacy' where someone unfriended some primary school friends who were raging at all the attention paid to the black underprivileged while they were ignored (the school was in a poor council house area). Racism deaf to all arguments. To which the ex-friends might have looked up and said that he was privileged with his university education, good job, comfortable housing, financial security and all he was saying to them was yes but 'black people have suffered far worse than you.'

Racism stems from power and privilege exerted over the weaker. It always has. It relies on keeping the weak down.

[jayne lee wilson]

... I am sorry, Jayne, if you found my remark offensive - my irritation was of course not aimed at you but at "Dr Neil Faulkner, Archaeologist and historian" who (needlessly, offensively, thoughtlessly, unimaginatively, ignorantly) deemed "philistines" those who are seriously disturbed by the actions of a mob who think they are right taking control of a situation. It is surely the mark of a historically-informed sensibility to be aware of how dangerous such a stance can be. Perhaps I have been too long immersed in thinking about the French Revolution...

You have again missed the powerfully artistic, culturally-aware-and-broadening redescriptive context of Dr. Faulkner's letter. Calling this action by the conveniently generalised term "mob violence" sadly brings you very close to alignment with Priti Patel.
So what's the difference between a terrorist and a freedom-fighter?

Heroic Sportspeople like Lewis Hamilton and (very powerfully on Newsnight last night) Raheem Sterling can see the difference between the pulling down of a deeply oppressive, racially offensive statue and "mob violence". I remain disappointed if you can't.

[vinteuil]

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Calling it "mob violence" sadly brings you very close to alignment with Priti Patel.

... I think my lawyers may have to get in touch with you!



I am sad that you don't seem to think that I might just be a little bit aware of these complex issues...

[Joseph K]

Is this also a 'mob'?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

... well that is just fatuous rubbish.

I do not approve of mob violence. "The ignorance of ages" - o pshaw, go back and look at what happened during the Terror.

.

I find myself surprisingly in tune with vinteuil on this topic. Just because you believe in something, it doesn't mean it's ok to take destructive action.

[johnb]

This from author Philippa Gregory (via FB)

Edward Colston and I go back a long way. I first came across him in 1968 when I won a scholarship funded by him, to attend a school founded by him: Colston’s School for Girls. ....
.... I learned that Edward Colston was born in Bristol in 1636 to a wealthy merchant family. Leaving for London he was a successful trader, joining the Royal Africa Company where he, working under a Royal warrant, traded more than 85,000 slaves including 12,000 children, of whom more than 19,000 died.

Edward Colston became chief executive - the Deputy Governor - before he retired to Bristol with his massive fortune. He returned to a city which had been the second greatest slaving city in England and he was welcomed as a successful son. His statue was erected a decade AFTER the abolition of slavery, and was intended to honour him, a man who had made his fortune from cruel and inhumane activity, in the very heart of a slave-trading city. .....

Sorry to be picky but it would be good if she bothered to get her facts straight (admittedly I am only using wikipedia as a reference).

Edward Colston didn't retire to Bristol when he left the Royal African Company in 1692. He was already carrying out his business activities from Mortlake, Surrey where he died in 1721, after retiring in 1708.

I'm not sure whether PG intended to say (incorrectly) that that EC retired to Bristol shortly after leaving the RAC but it's worth pointing out that until 1698 the London based RAC had a monopoly of all trade with Africa, including slaves. It was only after they lost that monopoly that the slave trade took off in Bristol.

Incidentally, the Bristol based Society of Merchant Venturers had been lobbying for the Royal African Company to lose the monopoly of the slave trade so that its members could cash in on the business. The Society of Merchant Venturers are still in existence and are very influential in Bristol. They objected to the wording of the proposed corrective plaque for the statue - ensuring no agreement could be found.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

So what's the difference between a terrorist and a freedom-fighter?

If they both involve violence, there's very little difference. It's simple a matter of which side you happen to be on.
Like immigration/emigration
Like reduction/oxidation

[MrGongGong]

I find myself surprisingly in tune with vinteuil on this topic. Just because you believe in something, it doesn't mean it's ok to take destructive action.

But it's ok for those who are "elected" (by a minority of people) to take action that destroys the lives of others ?

"What do you do when democracy fails you?"

There is no point in demonstrating, writing to MPs, organising petitions etc for many things... this is a case in point.
Folks had been doing all of that with no effect

Seems a reasonable way to go IMV

[vinteuil]

Seems a reasonable way to go IMV

... John Crace in The Guardian as ever on the money :

"The protests were also the subject of a ministerial statement from Priti Patel. It’s always a hard sell saying the government finds racism abhorrent when the prime minister once made a good living out of dashing off Daily Telegraph columns about picaninnies with watermelon smiles and women in burkas resembling letter boxes, but the home secretary did her best to gloss over the hypocrisy. She then – through gritted teeth – defended people’s right to protest before condemning violence against the police and criminal damage.
There were no arguments from Labour on any of these last points. Violence and tearing down statues had no place in our society. And yet you couldn’t miss the faint whiff of hypocrisy on both sides of the house. Almost all those who were appalled by Edward Colston being dumped in the river had cheered when the statue of Saddam Hussein had been torn down.
Nor was anyone calling for Colston to be reinstated on its plinth. Quite the reverse in fact, as many people in Bristol and elsewhere were rethinking the importance of figures with a murky colonial past in their cities. It was almost as if the protesters had done everyone a favour. They had got rid of a statue no one wanted and allowed the politicians to sound high-minded about the way in which it had been done. In Westminster they call that a win-win."

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[eighthobstruction]

Incidentally, the Bristol based Society of Merchant Venturers had been lobbying for the Royal African Company to lose the monopoly of the slave trade so that its members could cash in on the business. The Society of Merchant Venturers are still in existence and are very influential in Bristol. They objected to the wording of the proposed corrective plaque for the statue - ensuring no agreement could be found.

....very interesting....I know the issue of statue has gone on for 50 years....BMV very involved in education....