Statues

[vinteuil]

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Maybe those who are so offended ,,,

... I think those of us who are disturbed about this are not necessarily disturbed about the fact of this statue being 'removed' but rather by the means by which it was removed. There is a world of difference between a local democratic decision to move this statue elsewhere / replace with an informative plaque &c, and the violence of a mob taking it upon themselves to decide what is right.

Last time I was in Calcutta (it was Calcutta then, it is Kolkata now - or perhaps more correctly কলকাতা. *... ) - there was a rather touching forlorn garden into which all the statues of the great and good of the British Raj - from Victoria down to viceroys, governors-general, and sundry collectors and box-wallahs - had been consigned. They were available for those interested in the historical record, but not flaunted in the face of the descendants of those they ruled. It seems to me something similar could be used for these current problematic cases.

*

https://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/কলকাতা

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[Dave2002]

There is also this - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-52961519 about Cecil Rhodes in Oxford.]

The statue could be removed and put somewhere else, where it might still remind those who wanted about the history, but would not be a taunt to those who are offended by its presence. That might be a reasonable approach. I don't think the statue is a work of art.

[Bryn]

There is also this - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-52961519 about Cecil Rhodes in Oxford.]

The statue could be removed and put somewhere else, where it might still remind those who wanted about the history, but would not be a taunt to those who are offended by its presence. That might be a reasonable approach.

At least he's caged.

[Dave2002]

https://historicengland.org.uk/listi...-entry/1202137 More on the Colston statue, and relevance to Bristol.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I'm with Keir Starmer on this one. The statue should be in a museum to remind people of the way things were but should not have been, but not outdoors where it glorifies the man. I hope they salvage the statue and do this.

[Bryn]

The Edward Colston Annual Dinner and Dance Party (swimwear optional)

01 “British protesters topple Edward Colston statue…” (0:53)
02 (When My Baby does) The Bristol Stomp (2:21) ~ The Dovells
03 (I Saw the) Harbour Lights (3:17) ~ The Platters
04 I Snuck Off the Slave Ship (17:52) ~ Lonnie Holley
05 Love Minus Zero / No Limit (3:14) ~ Bob Dylan (“statues made of matchsticks, tumble into one another…” etc)
06 Semi-Porno Statuette (3:28) ~ Wreckless Eric
07 Slave Trade (4:06) ~ Joe Ariwa (Black History Awareness)
08 Statues (5:27) ~ Moloko
09 Statues of Shame (3:54) ~ Black Peaks
10 Take Me To The River (4:23) ~ The Rev. Al Green
11 The Trader (5:05) ~ Carl Wilson / Beach Boys
12 Unfinished Sympathy (5:08) ~ Massive Attack (Bristol’s finest)

Splash!!

from https://szczelkuns.wordpress.com/202...ll-agit-disco/

[Count Boso]

I'm with Keir Starmer on this one. The statue should be in a museum to remind people of the way things were but should not have been, but not outdoors where it glorifies the man. I hope they salvage the statue and do this.

Yes - and yes to vinteuil who suggested it was the way that the statue was treated that was (if it was) offensive. It's ironic that Colston seems only to be 'glorified' so widely in Bristol because of the huge extent of his philanthropic endowments for schools for the poor, hospitals, churches, almshouses for the elderly. Had he given less there would have been no statue commemorating his gifts, nothing for people to tear down.

Further research (sorry, I like playing devil's advocate and also have a mania for exactness) shows that he was only involved with the Royal African Company for 12 years of his 85-year life (Wikipedia). I think it would be reasonable to assume that only a fraction of the wealth which he showered on Bristol derived from slavery.

But people have a cause at the moment, and are looking for ways to demonstrate their strength of feeling. Logically you could argue that if there had been no slave trade there would be fewer black people in the United States to be murdered and discriminated against. Where would they be and what their circumstances? (Please don't misinterpret this as saying what I'm not. I'm just imagining - I have no answer. We cannot change history)

[Bryn]

Although Colston was born in the city [Bristol] in 1636, he never lived there as an adult. All his slave-trading was conducted out of the City of London.

Colston grew up in a wealthy merchant family in Bristol and after going to school in London he established himself as a successful trader in textiles and wool.

In 1680 he joined the Royal African Company (RAC) company that had a monopoly on the west African slave trade. It was formally headed by the brother of King Charles II who later took the throne as James II. The company branded the slaves – including women and children – with its RAC initials on their chests.

It is believed to have sold about 100,000 west African people in the Caribbean and the Americas between 1672 and 1689 and it was through this company that Colston made the bulk of his fortune, using profits to move into money lending.

from https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...atter-protests , linked to earlier.

[MrGongGong]

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... I think those of us who are disturbed about this are not necessarily disturbed about the fact of this statue being 'removed' but rather by the means by which it was removed. There is a world of difference between a local democratic decision to move this statue elsewhere / replace with an informative plaque &c, and the violence of a mob taking it upon themselves to decide what is right.



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Without quoting the Reid brothers too much

What do you do when democracy fails you ?

The Statue Park in Budapest is another example (I think I referred to it upthread)

[Count Boso]

from https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...atter-protests , linked to earlier.

That is simply linking back to the parliamentary article, which itself goes against the evidence providing by a leading … oh, sorry, I was going to say expert .... on Bristol trading in the 18th-c, article published in 1999. The parliamentary article quotes from a work by HJ Wilkins published 100 years ago - known to Prof Morgan and quoted frequently by him (both the 1920 book and supplement); though that article does not have any reference to Prof Morgan's later research. Morgan also points out the deficiencies in terms of modern historical research of older works dealing with the subject. He is clear that there is no evidence that 'the bulk of' Colston's wealth derived from the slave trade.

The Guardian has another link there to the Bristol Museums website:

"Edward Colston never, as far as we know, traded in enslaved Africans on his own account. We do not know how much profit he took from the RAC's trade in enslaved Africans - he was paid dividends such as 50 guineas in July [1680], and 160 guineas in November 1685. He sold William, Prince of Orange, some of his RAC shares worth £1,000 in 1689, then bought more for himself. We do not know how much of his fortune was built up from his trade in wine and oil, or from investments or loans, or from money and property inherited from his father. What we do know is that he was an active member of the governing body of the RAC, which traded in enslaved Africans, for 11 years.

[MrGongGong]

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/jun/08/bristol-colston-hall-name-change-autumn-2020-bristol-music-trust?fbclid=IwAR3136zKksMUUkP4EQtezgbUb3HX5lCrTGH9JFcBEiKf59p80arpUmzXpGU

[Count Boso]

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...9p80arpUmzXpGU

I'm enjoying this new field of research. That will be the same Louise Mitchell (Chief executive Louise Mitchell described the Colston name as “a toxic brand”) of 2011 would it?

"A NAME change for concert venue Colston Hall has been ruled out. The Bristol Music Trust, which took over the running of the hall from Bristol City Council earlier this year, made the decision at a board meeting in the light of a continuing debate over the name’s connections with the slave trade.

A number of campaigners have called for the Colston Street venue to be renamed, notably leading Bristol band Massive Attack, who refused to play there in protest. But the idea of renaming it has been dismissed as “tokenistic” by the board. Deputy city council leader Simon Cook is the authority’s council representative on the board and attended the meeting when the decision was made.

He said: “Suggestions had been made we might change the name. At the last meeting we briefly discussed the issue and resolved not to change the name.

“Louise [Mitchell, the trust chief executive] felt it wasn’t appropriate.

“She felt it would be much better, if there was a barrier to BME (black and minority ethnic) people coming to the hall, to give them opportunities to do so rather than do something tokenistic like a name change.

“The hall was never built with Edward Colston’s money anyway; there is no historical connection to him. My view has always been that we should reach out to the community and get as many people into the hall as possible. If you talk to different members of the BME community you get a different response.

“I think it’s sad if some people won’t play there.”

Although there was no vote, members agreed after the chief executive told them “she did not believe it was a good idea” to change the name.

https://bristolpolitics.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/colston-hall-wont-be-renamed-because-of-slavery-connection/

[Bryn]

I'm enjoying this new field of research. That will be the same Louise Mitchell (Chief executive Louise Mitchell described the Colston name as “a toxic brand”) of 2011 would it? . . .

Always good for a sinner to see the light.

[Count Boso]

Always good for a sinner to see the light.

True. All I can say is that if good comes out of this outpouring of rage, and there is a heightened awareness and vigilance over any kind of racist behaviour, then it will have been worth all the emotional expenditure and clamour. On Colston himself, I feel as weary as over Brexit: emotion will cap all rational argument and facts. So be it. I'm away to my books.

[muzzer]

As I understand from Bristolian friends, and there may of course be other Bristolian forum members, this event has got the council off the hook, it having failed to grasp the nettle of how to deal with the statue, whilst accepting that something had to be done. I agree with Steer Calmer that it should be in a museum. The manner of the act yesterday was distressing. Whilst understandable, it’s no less violent than much of what the protestors seek to oppose. And as usual with any such event, the overwhelmingly peaceful message and conduct is erased from the public memory when there’s a punchup later on which just gives the government ammunition. And like it or not the whole issue is a dead cat to distract people from the now certainty of a no deal brexit and the oncoming economic calamity, which the government will of course blame on the EU/COVID. To say nothing of the impact on the R number of large public gatherings, which remains to be seen.