Statues

[MrGongGong]

Thoughts on cultural significance maybe?

This springs to mind (though given recent events in that country one would hope that the current leader will soon join them)

http://www.mementopark.hu

[Dave2002]

There’s a truly massive statue in Kiev.

[ardcarp]

Similar thoughts occurred to me Gongers when I saw the news from Bristol. Colston was indeed involved in slave-trading, but was in his way (and given the ethics of his time) a benefactor. In many ways, removing his statue is an attempt to 'change history' as totalitarian regimes, communist or otherwise, are wont to do. We are surely a mature enough society not to need to do that sort of thing? I can absolutely understand why yesterday's event happened, and I can also understand why the police didn't go in heavy-handed to stop it. On the one hand, the treatment of the Windrush generation by May's nasty petty-minded ultra right government brought it on. On the other, nobody in Europe thinks slavery is a good idea and have not for the past 150 years at least. The treatment of ethnic minorities is another matter for which peaceful protest is surely the best solution?

[Count Boso]

Thoughts on cultural significance maybe?

There is always a cultural significance of some sort, though the danger is that there are also alternative narratives. Raise a statue and there's one narrative, pull it down and there's another. What 'consent' was there in raising the statue, what consent for tearing it down? But there's also the symbolism. When there's a huge problem, hurt and anger, attacking the symbol may be all people feel they can do.

Perhaps it's true to say that when there is general consent for taking down the statue of a 'hated' figure, a battle has already been won. Pulling it down without consent can create, Trump-like, conflict between people who started off from the same point of view. And what has it changed? What battle has it won, other than remove a statue?

[DracoM]

If there were now placed a real plaque at the statue saying exactly how the Colstons had made their money, it might have become a statue that reminded instead of glorifying.

By making such an event of destroying it, the demonstrators have obliterated that history from daily memory and thus DECREASED the exposure of past wrongs.

Inexplicable.

[vinteuil]

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... an excellent, thoughtful article by Matt: Chorley in The Times this morning unpicking the complicated matter of Bristol and its slave-trading past, including a merciless take on the tin-eared approach to these issues by the current 'government'.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/we-need-more-than-simplistic-responses-to-bristols-complex-race-history-8f3vglbvn

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[MrGongGong]

If there were now placed a real plaque at the statue saying exactly how the Colstons had made their money, it might have become a statue that reminded instead of glorifying.

By making such an event of destroying it, the demonstrators have obliterated that history from daily memory and thus DECREASED the exposure of past wrongs.

Inexplicable.

I think that it does the opposite... and draws attention to past AND current "wrongs"

Given the history and campaign, it was in many ways inevitable that this would happen.

Colston Hall will reopen with a new name, lots of performers have boycotted it in the past.

What do you do when all your writing to MP's, petition, protesting has no effect ?

When the statue of Saddam was toppled it was on the UK media as a great "victory" for "the people"

[DracoM]

I think that it does the opposite... and draws attention to past AND current "wrongs"

Given the history and campaign, it was in many ways inevitable that this would happen.

Colston Hall will reopen with a new name, lots of performers have boycotted it in the past.

What do you do when all your writing to MP's, petition, protesting has no effect ?

When the statue of Saddam was toppled it was on the UK media as a great "victory" for "the people"

Fair point.

[Bryn]

I think that it does the opposite... and draws attention to past AND current "wrongs"

Given the history and campaign, it was in many ways inevitable that this would happen.

Colston Hall will reopen with a new name, lots of performers have boycotted it in the past.

What do you do when all your writing to MP's, petition, protesting has no effect ?

When the statue of Saddam was toppled it was on the UK media as a great "victory" for "the people"

Just how removed for reality is Priti Vacant? How can she fail to see the all too direct connection between Colston's slave trading and the murder of George Floyd.

[vinteuil]

Just how removed for reality is Priti Vacant? How can she fail to see the all too direct connection between Colston's slave trading and the murder of George Floyd.

... as Chorley puts it, "You know things are serious when Priti Patel is dusted down and rushed on to the TV to condemn the toppling of Colston as 'utterly disgraceful'. Yet it might have carried more weight if the home secretary had rushed on to our screens earlier to sympathise with the Black Lives Matter cause. Or even to refer to it, just once, in her appearance in the Commons last week.... When Boris Johnson has to be bounced into commenting on Floyd’s death by Sir Keir Starmer at PMQs, or it is a junior minister who is sent out to defend a report into why coronavirus hits BAME people hardest which has no recommendations, or nobody has quite got round to learning the lessons of Windrush, a message is sent that this is not really on the government’s list of priorities."


'

[teamsaint]

Turkmenistan may not lead the world in much, despite its fine musical tradition and interesting politics, but they are way out ahead of also rans such as Bristol on statues, each one bigger, better and more golden than the last.

https://www.mircorp.com/ashgabat-turkmenistans-lavish-capital-of-marble-gold-photo-gallery/

Followed by

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/25/horse-turkmenistan-president-statute-berdymukhamedov

[oddoneout]

I gather that repeated attempts to provide information by means of a plaque or similar to explain the background to Colston have been refused/not considered/removed. It would surely be better to leave the statue, with the history, on site so people can get the full picture/better understanding of the history, and make up their own minds about how the slave trade was viewed historically and why the statue was erected. Taking the statue down doesn't at a stroke remove the disgrace of the slave trade.

On the other, nobody in Europe thinks slavery is a good idea and have not for the past 150 years at least. The treatment of ethnic minorities is another matter for which peaceful protest is surely the best solution?

Perhaps not in the old way of packing black slaves on galleys, but there are a great many people who see nothing wrong in practising and/or enabling current day slavery. How many of those multi-million pound mansions in London contain staff whose passports have been taken from them and who are threatened with dire consequences if they attempt to leave? There are individuals and groups who import foreign workers, 'house' them in appalling conditions and again use fear to prevent escape.
A family member encountered this situation over 10 years ago when she was looking for hospitality staff and interviewed two terrified women whose passports had been taken away, who weren't being paid for the work they were being forced to do, and were being threatened if they tried to leave for other work - and yes she did deal with it(even though the authorities weren't that eager to help) and took on the women who proved to be exemplary employees. The cuts to the services that should be dealing with such cases - police, council, CAB etc means that such things can and do still happen, with sufficient impunity to make it worth the while of those responsible. The numbers may be fewer in total ( I don't know ) but given how much we have progressed (supposedly) in our views of the worth of an individual's wellbeing and right to a decent life in the 21st century they are arguably comparable and equally abhorrent.

[Bryn]

... as Chorley puts it, "You know things are serious when Priti Patel is dusted down and rushed on to the TV to condemn the toppling of Colston as 'utterly disgraceful'. Yet it might have carried more weight if the home secretary had rushed on to our screens earlier to sympathise with the Black Lives Matter cause. Or even to refer to it, just once, in her appearance in the Commons last week.... When Boris Johnson has to be bounced into commenting on Floyd’s death by Sir Keir Starmer at PMQs, or it is a junior minister who is sent out to defend a report into why coronavirus hits BAME people hardest which has no recommendations, or nobody has quite got round to learning the lessons of Windrush, a message is sent that this is not really on the government’s list of priorities."'

Thanks, I stopped at the paywall for that article.

[oddoneout]

... as Chorley puts it, "You know things are serious when Priti Patel is dusted down and rushed on to the TV to condemn the toppling of Colston as 'utterly disgraceful'. Yet it might have carried more weight if the home secretary had rushed on to our screens earlier to sympathise with the Black Lives Matter cause. Or even to refer to it, just once, in her appearance in the Commons last week.... When Boris Johnson has to be bounced into commenting on Floyd’s death by Sir Keir Starmer at PMQs, or it is a junior minister who is sent out to defend a report into why coronavirus hits BAME people hardest which has no recommendations, or nobody has quite got round to learning the lessons of Windrush, a message is sent that this is not really on the government’s list of priorities."


'

Not so much message as confirmation?

[teamsaint]

Not so much message as confirmation?

I’d be amazed if they were organised enough to have a list.